Sean D Arena - Writer, Photographer

Joining me this week is Sean D Arena

Since his first job as a Camera Production Assistant in 2007, Sean has worked for companies like Dotdash Meredith, Time Inc, NBCUniversal, and Cablevision, as well as a freelancer on various film & TV sets.

Sean was the Writer/Editor for the documentary Cherry's In Season, which takes the audience through a season in the life of a bar in one of Fire Island's most iconic LGBTQ+ communities. Recently, he was one of the writers for the documentary Keeper of the Bay - a film about marine conservation through the eyes of a native Hawaiian woman as she fights to continue her family legacy. And most recently Sean was one of the creators and production managers of Images of Trans Humanity.

I had a lovely time talking to Sean, so enjoy. 

Sean's Instagram

My letterboxd:

My film Reel Terror:

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Your Life and Film. I'm your host, Ted Bennett. Joining me this week, Sean De Arena. Sean Arena? Sean De Arena. I think I I just refer to him as Sean. I didn't think that the D was uh necessary in our conversation. Sean is a writer and photographer. Some of the documentaries he has co-written Cherries in Season, which takes the audience through a season in the life of a bar in one of Fire Island's most iconic LGBTQ communities. He also co-wrote Keeper of the Bay, a film about marine conservation through the eyes of a native Hawaiian woman as she fights to continue her family legacy. That was on PBS. I'll link them in the comments. Most recently, Sean has been working as a creator and a production manager for Images of Transhumanity, which I'll link in the comments also. Sean was a good talk, good chat. I liked Sean. We got on quite quickly quite No, we got on quite well quite quickly, so that was always nice. We started the conversation with his work as a journalist, transitioning into film and people taking it a bit too seriously. So there's the preamble. I'll lead you in.

SPEAKER_04 1:08

I worked in news. So like and like I was I I did both local and national news, and like when I was a f well when I was out in the field, like I got shot at, I had to talk to murderers, I had to interview people who like just lived through like gang shootings and I lived through hurricanes. I almost got like I almost died multiple times. And then I go to this place where it's like we're interviewing celebrities and we're talking about sports, and we're yeah, you know, and and people are like, oh this is this is really important. I'm like, is it it's not that important? It's not that important. It's really not that important. And like that definitely used to piss people off. Like a lot, like a lot. It used to piss people off. Uh, you know, because uh like my my my my job was uh physical production. So like you know, they'd they'd they'd be working on a production, they'd need something to make it work, they whether it was crew or sets or equipment or whatever, we'd get it, we'd book it, we'd make sure everyone had what they needed, but then at the end of the day, people would get their ego bruised, and then I'd get my hands slapped, and you're just like, I can't deal with all these egos. Like, I'm sorry, like we're not this is not high stakes, we're not doctors, this isn't the military. Like honestly, like y'all, like it's it's really it's okay. It's really okay.

SPEAKER_00 2:23

And like having a nice time.

SPEAKER_04 2:24

Yeah, like this is fine, like it's re you know. Um, so like it was it was great to you know meet all these celebrities and actors and icons all all the time, but after a while you're just like, I d I don't, I don't I don't care anymore.

SPEAKER_00 2:39

Oh god. I was when I was a film journalist, I think I interviewed like Simon Pegg three times in about a month, right? All for different venues. Yeah, right. And on the third one, he said, How many, how many times are we gonna keep doing this? And in my head, I was like, you're right, I don't want to do it anymore. Yeah. Because it was just like I can't just like everyone's so s like sycophantic and desperate to try and be their best mate. And I was like, Oh, I don't think I can smile and pretend. Like this isn't this isn't it. Like and yeah, uh after that it was the Empire Film Awards. I was just like, I'm not doing any more red carpets.

SPEAKER_04 3:17

Yeah, I don't I don't I don't blame any man. I red carpets are are I yep.

SPEAKER_00 3:22

Oh, people think that they are so exciting, and it's like they're not I can tell you which actors are drunk all the time. That's about it.

SPEAKER_04 3:32

Yep. It's like who or I my I think my favorite thing is when it's it's funny for me, like you know, uh when I meet people and I tell them what I do and and and like you know the industry that I work in and so on, they're like, oh, that's so cool. And then after talking to me for five minutes, I realize I'm deeply uncool. Um but then of course people are like they'll they'll ask me, you know, oh what's you know, what celebrities have you met? And I'm and I'll tell them, like, do you want to know who's an asshole and who's not? Because I'll tell you. And they're like, no, no, no, don't tell me. I'm like, I I I can tell you.

SPEAKER_03 4:07

I I know I know who is. You want me to I got some assholes ready. Like, do you want me do you want me to burst your bubble? Because I will. They don't they don't people are like, no, no, I don't want to know. I'm like, okay.

SPEAKER_00 4:19

My one was like who is it? Someone interviewed uh Arnold Schwarzenegger once and they were like a uh an acquaintance and they sort of said like he was he was nice, but the sparkle had gone in his eye, and I was like, Oh, that's cut me even deeper. Like, I didn't need to know that the sparkle had gone in his eye.

SPEAKER_04 4:39

So like so I I did go to college for for film. I did I do have a degree in in film. I'm I'm I am a a a dweeby dorky snobby film student, but I'm same. But I think one of the things that that was important for me to learn, and I don't I don't know that it's something that's taught in every film program in a university everywhere, but something that I appreciated from from my my very first cinema studies class was the was the professor said one thing that I want to make clear, and I'm I'm going to hold you all to account for this, is that just because you like something doesn't mean it's good, and just because you don't like something doesn't mean it's bad. I need you to be able to dict to dictate what don't you like about it, why, why didn't it work for you? And you need to instead of saying it's good, it's bad, like actually identify what they're doing in the film. Yes. Um and I think that that does serve me, that has served me really well. Um even for filmmakers, mm films, movies, etc., act actors, whoever, that I don't necessarily appreciate their work, that I don't generally like what they do, I'm still able to take things away from it. Even if it's something where I'm like, oh, that didn't work for me, I can I can ask myself, like, well, why didn't that work for me? Oh, okay, I know now why that didn't work for me. So I know when sorry, when when I when I do something, I'm going to make sure that I don't do it like that. I'm going to do it like this. Or even if I don't know how to how I want to do it, I know how I don't want to do it. Um and that I think is really, really important. And I think that's something that's lacking from a lot of conversations. From it's just like, I don't like it, so it's bad. Whether it's a movie, whether it's a book, whether it's politics, it's just like if you don't like it, that's the end of it. And it's like, well, no, there's nuance. Like, let's the world is a giant gray area. This whole it's black and white is not true. Like, it's a spectrum, so let's talk about it.

SPEAKER_00 7:01

Yeah. And it also, just because I like it and you don't, let's say, you're not gonna hurt my feelings. I like it. What does it matter? Right. Like, it doesn't matter whether it's uh and like I objectively I'm not a fan of Tarantino's work, but I completely understand why it's well received. Right.

SPEAKER_04 7:23

Same. Same. You know, uh it's it's uh it's funny. Um I think what I had the most trouble with in in in you know coming up with my answers and so on for for your questions was was the controversial take. Uh because not in that I don't have controversial takes, I do. Um it it's it's that I I thought that I was unique in my controversial takes, and then in listening to uh your past episodes and realizing how many other people have some of those opinions, I'm like, uh oh, I'm not I'm not unique or cool at all. Alright, cool, whatever. Alright, moving that one to the side.

SPEAKER_03 8:05

I don't want to repeat the same thing that other people have said. Um But I like I like this controversial opinion.

SPEAKER_00 8:11

People are like, I don't know if it's controversial.

SPEAKER_04 8:14

I'm like, we'll I'm with you. And I'm very much on the same page uh uh as you as Tarantino. Like I've I I get it, but people have always been like, well, what do you mean you don't like it? I'm like, I don't like Pulp Fiction, I'm sorry. Like I get why people do, but like, no, I'm s I don't. Like I I will I will tell you I will say that something I tell people all the time is my favorite Tarantino film is True Romance, and they go, That's not a Tarantino film. Like, exactly. He wrote it and he had nothing else to do with it.

SPEAKER_00 8:46

I've always said the films he wrote but didn't direct are so much better.

SPEAKER_04 8:51

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 8:52

As soon as he gets his little grubby weirdo hands on it, I'm like, oh, you've ruined it.

SPEAKER_04 8:58

Have you seen um did you listen to or watch the the episode of Amy Polar's podcast when she had on Maya Hawk?

SPEAKER_00 9:09

I I haven't yet, but I wanted to, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 9:12

One I one one little thing I just have to throw out there because it's relevant to the conversation is uh Amy Polar asked her, did your mom give you any advice before working with Tarantino in Once Upon a Time in Hollywood? And she said, cover your feet.

SPEAKER_03 9:36

I just I lost it. I was like, yep, alright. We were all thinking it. Cool.

SPEAKER_00 9:42

Glad umas on the on the case telling the right word. Yeah, man. It's saying how it is. Saying how it is, it's so yeah, I don't know. I mean, obviously I could sit here and bitch about Tarantino all day, but we probably shouldn't. Yeah, fair enough. But yeah, it's it I think it's it's nice when I find out that other people because obviously as a film st like I studied film, yeah, I am aware that sometimes it can become off it can come off as snobbish. And it's like, yes, but bear in mind I have studied film. So this isn't a hobby. If I only had one evening a week to watch a movie, show me Jackie Brown, and that is Black Exploitation. Yep. You know, that's fine. But I I I studied film, so we did a whole module on black exploitation, so I have seen a lot of black exploitation and the like the individual elements of all of those films are infinitely better than Jackie Brown. Now I know Jackie Brown's a bad one to say because I know not a lot of people like that one, right? But it is the same. It's that sort of thing, like I prefer 90s Hong Kong cinema and 80s Hong Kong cinema, so I'm not a massive fan of Reservoir Dogs because I got all the good shit from that.

SPEAKER_05 10:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:57

And I've got the time to watch it, and I've got the time to sit and watch a load of shit as well. Oh to go. Totally. Oh, these this is all good. Everything that he's picked from, I actually prefer it as a whole. And if you haven't got time for that, go watch Reservoir Dogs.

SPEAKER_04 11:12

I would much rather watch uh The Killer than Reservoir Dogs. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 11:18

Yeah. Or like Cardboiled.

SPEAKER_04 11:22

Right. Yeah, totally. Yeah. There's like there's so there are so many other things that I could go rewatch instead of that.

SPEAKER_00 11:30

And what's odd is that I actually would say that like his later stuff is when I actually started to like it a bit more. So Django Unchained was the first one that I was like, oh, this is good.

SPEAKER_01 11:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:44

And everyone was like, I don't know about this one as much. And I'm like, This is good. What do you want about Hateful Eight? Hateful Eight was really good. It was like, I think it was actually one of his better things. And then Once Upon a Time in Hollywood was something that I was I first watched it, and I was like, I don't know if I like this. And then my dad said, like, give it a rewatch, and I was like, Oh, it's a long one to give a re-watch. He was like, I had the same feeling. I watched it the first time, I didn't quite care. I went back and watched it again. It's good. I went back and rewatched it, and I was like, Oh, I am happily wrong. I really love this. And I love Once Upon a Time in Hollywood now. But as I as you would have heard, and all the listeners will know, I rewatch films I disliked more.

unknown 12:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:27

Because I gotta be like, wait, why didn't I like it? Why do I have a bad time?

SPEAKER_04 12:31

I do the same thing. I'm like, you know, things that I I've I've I've held a an opinion of for a long time, where I'm like, I I didn't enjoy this the first time I watched it, and now it's a decade later. Or I'll do things where I did enjoy it the first time I watched it, and I go, I want to, it's not it doesn't hold a special place in my heart, but I enjoyed it. I want to watch it now with the person that I am now and not who I was 10 years ago, 20 years ago. Let me watch it now. And I I did I actually did that recently with um Safety Last. Okay. Um, you know, I I saw when I was a film student, and I was like, okay, I you know, I hadn't you know grown up into the adult that I am now. I was 18, 17, 18 years old when I saw it, and I had barely seen silent films. So, okay, cool. I was like, oh wow, Harold Lloyd, Safety Less, alright, it's a classic, it's an icon, it's got you know iconic stunts and scenes and so on. And then I watch it now and I'm like, oh, okay. Yes, yeah, sure, iconic scenes, iconic stunts, but also tropes of of of black Americans, tropes of of Jewish Jewish immigrants and sh Jewish Americans, sexist tropes of women, and you're just like, uh I know it's I know it's a century old, but no, okay.

SPEAKER_00 14:02

I don't enjoy this. Yeah, and I think you uh it is that awkward thing when you're watching something like that and you're like, I can still appreciate the stunts, you know, I can still appreciate what has been done, but I don't have to actually look at it in any sort of like I wouldn't say The Jazz Singer is a good film, but I respect that it is the first film with well not even the first film, the first major film with synchronized sound, right? And even then it wasn't 100% synchronized. So no like yeah, I I get it. Right. I need to watch it as a film enjoyer. I should see the first person to have done it, but like who's done it better? In my opinion, everything that uh like uh Lloyd, Keaton, and Chaplin did, uh I think Jackie Chan has completely uh blown my mind with it, and I'm like, Jackie Chan does it the best. I think he does physical comedy in a stunt-based perfor like performance better than they ever could purely because of time and abilities and safety precautions and everything. So I respect what they've did, I enjoy seeing how it was created, but I would always rather like this version. And I think you know, if you don't go back and re-evaluate, you might just completely dismiss something as like, oh well, I don't like that. And it's like, yeah, but look where it came from, look where it got you, look look who inf influenced them, who they influence. Just play that game, see where it goes. You might find something that you didn't realize you liked, just go back and double check, you know.

SPEAKER_04 15:39

Yeah, oh yeah. I you know, it's it's when when I was a student, I had very strong opinions against documentaries. I could not stand watching them. I hated how so many of them were staged or completely fake or a mixture and and also manipulative because at the end of the day you're still you're still telling a story and you still have to shape it and so on. And then largely my career has been in news and documentary and nonfiction. Um and it's I kind of fell backwards into it, and then in in in writing documentaries and so on, I was like, oh, uh, okay, I I get where I came from when I have those opinions, but I I I also now under I understand this better. And yes, I'm telling a story, and yes, you are you know building a character in a world, but at the same time, you are telling someone's story that isn't being told, and this is how you're gonna get it out there, right? Both of the documentaries that I wrote felt that way for for me, where it was okay, I want I I want to tell this story because no one else is going to hear it if I don't. You know, or uh or or or it's not so much that no one's going to hear it, but outside of the community that they're in, where everybody knows this thing or this person or so, you know.

SPEAKER_03 17:16

Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 17:16

But like the wider world it doesn't know this story, and it the story deserves to be told. People should know who this person is or what this place is or what this is all about for varying reasons, whether to humanize or to shine a light on it, or to bring it, you know, to bring an importance to it. That it can be a powerful, powerful tool. Um, but I I will say that in both of in in both of the the films that I worked on, um the that there there's still a little bit of that film student in me where I go, okay, well hold on. Yes, we're shaping a story, but I have a very strong moral line of I will we'll shape the story and we'll tell it as it is and we'll we'll tell what we got. But I'm not manipulating anything in this script. I'm not min m manipulating any of the sound in the in in the edit to make it appear as though someone has said something or done something that is completely out of context or in a different context so that we can kind of nudge the story in a different direction. I'm not a fan of that at all. And I've had I've had some people ask me to do that, and I I refuse I refuse to do that.

SPEAKER_00 18:32

Go make a fictional thing that slightly resembles that topic, then. Yeah. Don't make a documentary. Right. And I've and I'm fine with highlighting something that you know it's like, ooh, that is quote unquote, a juicier part of the story.

SPEAKER_05 18:51

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 18:52

And I know that if I want there to be an audience, you're gonna have to it's a bit like Game of Thrones. You front load it with tits and violence, and then once everyone's bought in, you bring it back. I understand. You know, it's sort of like if you just want to give a little bit of something at the beginning, because the people that are interested are gonna stay, and the people who aren't interested, it doesn't matter anymore. So once you've got that thing, it's like, are you interested? Yes, okay, here we go, and then you can smooth it out and be like, This is I I've got you with the headline, now we can smooth it out and give you the facts. And it's that I don't mind, providing that that headline isn't like look at this, and then something horrible and selective slander or liable, and then it's doesn't go anywhere. It's like, ugh, because I've seen too many documentaries that only had their headline, they didn't have the end. Right. And then they just taper into nothing, and you're like, right, you didn't have a story.

SPEAKER_04 19:51

You just had a pie. I will say that um I have seen that firsthand either with the projects I've worked on or with other with other projects that and films that um my some of my colleagues have worked on or um or that I've you know heard about firsthand and and so on. That so many people go and go into a documentary like, yeah, this is cool. Let's film some stuff and let's see what we get. Right? You know, it it's it's a little bit different than you know the the first one that I that I wrote, I actually day played on as a as a camera operator. I knew the director, him and I had worked together, um, and he he needed uh a few camera operators to cover certain days because there was just a lot going on. And um the film was Cherries in Season, and it's a season in a life of a uh a bar uh in Cherry Grove on Fire Island. And Cherry Grove is one of the is is one of the the um famous LGBTQ communities on Fire Island. Um as as one of the uh people that was interviewed for the film says, um the Pines is for all of the the the neat rich gays, and and uh Cherry Grove is for the people who want to go out and party and wake up on the boardwalk the next morning. Um and that is a very fair assessment. Um it was a very it was a very fun time working working on that and cover and covering it. And but they they went into that film knowing what the arc of the film was. It was like, okay, start to finish, okay. We start in March when they go, when everyone goes back to the island to open everything up, see what they see okay, what what damage is there from the winter, what has to get done, let's put everything together. All right, we know that all the all the employees who come and live on the island for the season are gonna come and they're all gonna live together. And yeah, there there might be a bit of drama and So on. Okay, cool. But now we have to, there's all these benchmarks that we knew. Okay, there's there's this event, there's this milestone, there's this famous thing. Like that's the story. What we shot in between, that was the okay, that's the we're gonna see what we get. But we knew that there was an arc and that would fit, and that made total sense. So when it came time to to write the film, um, the director asked me to to work on it because he was like, Look, you were there for a lot of it, you're a good writer, I want you to do this because I think you have like you have the right idea for this. I was like, great, cool. And in watching it, I was like, I think we need some historical context in here for the history of Fire Island, LGBTQ rights, et cetera. Like, we're not trying to make a documentary about the Stonewall riots, but like let's put some context in here for people so they understand the importance, the significance, the you know, where where they're coming from, why this matters even to begin with. Like, yeah, sure, Cherry Grove is a part is a is a party town, but like why? Why does it matter? And putting in that those that context helped.

SPEAKER_00 23:04

Um and uh It's the subtle mix between a Ken Burns documentary and Real Housewives.

SPEAKER_04 23:11

Right. I mean kind of, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:13

I I want to pop, but I also need some facts.

SPEAKER_04 23:16

But I don't know. Right. But like we we knew go like even going in, we're like, we knew what we know what this arc is, you know, but I've seen so many people just like, yeah, we're just gonna show up and we're gonna shoot some stuff. And you're like, that's not how that works. So please don't do that.

SPEAKER_00 23:30

Um, that's what you're gonna get.

SPEAKER_04 23:32

Right. You know, um, and then the the the one that the last the the the latest one I worked on, um uh Keeper of the Bay, which aired on PBS Hawaii. Um, it is about um Cindy Punahalo, who is from big the big island of Hawaii. Um and she she grew up there and then uh moved to the mainland for uh a little while when she was younger, and then when she came back, she really made it her mission to protect a uh very specific bay on on the west coast of the big island um that had both environmental and historical significance and importance to the community, to the culture, and to the and and and uh so on, to the indigenous community. So um she has been protecting this bay for 30 years. Um and there's there's a there's a coral reef there. Um and she has fought for decades to keep it safe, to study it, to analyze it, to train the community and the youth to do the same thing. And uh I think what's in what has been really important for me and in my career is to continue growing and take things away from every single thing that I work on. Um and with with Keeper of the Bay, what I really took away from it was was um uh something that's really important to Cindy and and to the indigenous community as well, which is you know, you're you're not we're not here to hoard as much wealth as possible. We're here to protect the land, to keep the earth safe, so that it is here for a hundred years from now for the next generations to to you know to actually do it for the kids, right? Like what to make sure that everything is still here, right? Yeah, um, and and over the course of the last 20, 30 years with climate change and and and warming oceans, and we've seen the destruction to the ocean, she has been seeing these trends there, and she was able to bring in scientists and and and get more money for for for things to really take closer a closer look at everything. Um she is known as the keeper of the bay, and that's that's where the title of the film comes from. Um but in when I dove into this uh with the director, you know, we they they they knew where they wanted to go, but they got a lot of uh they they just had a lot. And yeah she, you know, the the uh the director is someone who I'd worked with before, who I you know loved working with, I loved working with her on this, and I would gladly work with her again. And we had so many conversations of like, look, we could cut this into five different films, we can make this a miniseries, we could how do how do we want to cut this? Um and ultimately I said, look, it's Cindy is the core of this. So we can go into the science and we can go into the the political hang-ups and and and the community and the history, but at the core of it is Cindy. She needs to be the through line through this. Um and uh I I s can see where uh other documentary films and other document documentarians can get distracted with all of the things. It's like that's cool, that's cool, that's cool, that's cool, and then they just lose the plot. You know.

SPEAKER_00 27:12

And uh obviously if you've not got a a strong narrative like baked into your mind of how you want to tell the story, and then you've got a producer in your ear asking for a very different outcome. They want views, they want advertising, and they want money. So if they're saying like shoot it like this, you've got to be like, okay, well, I want to please you, and I don't quite know how the story's gonna go yet, so I'll see how we can go. Then you've got a cinematographer who's trying to get in this lovely, like fucking golden hour shot with a dolphin, and you're like, Right, yeah, I guess we could put that in. Um I think it would work. And you're pleasing too many people, and you have to have that sort of rigidity in yourself to be like, No, no, that's not what this is, we're not getting that, we're not doing that. Or you just go like, Yeah, you go the old Martin Scorsese router, going like, Yeah, of course we'll do that. Fuck on just turning off and just being like, I'll do what the fuck I like. Yeah, but you know, it's it's such a fine line. And I um started my career doing behind the scenes for films, and it it was so uh liberating knowing that it's like, well, all I have to do is capture you guys making a film. Like I don't have to manufacture drama because there either is or isn't on a film set, and for your sake, I hope there isn't. For my sake, I hope there's a little bit. For your sake, I hope there isn't. So, you know, it's very easy to be like, alright, you're setting up a shop, cool, right, get that. Actor doing some rehearsals, cool, get that. And it's it as a like I would suggest if anyone wants to get into the film industry, do that, because then you get to see everyone, you get to see parts of everything. And doing a documentary in that sort of sense, they are fun.

SPEAKER_02 28:56

They are.

SPEAKER_00 28:57

I would say documentaries are more fun to make than narratives.

SPEAKER_04 29:00

Absolutely, they 100% are. I think that's why I've uh uh had the career that I've had so far, because like it it genuinely is just fun. I've been I've been I've done I've done the film set life. You know, I worked in Grip and Electric um you know on on non-union sets for a few years, and and after a few years I looked at the I looked in the mirror and went, I I'm not I don't want to do this anymore. Like uh I'm good at this, but I don't want to do this anymore. Uh and and it's just it's it's a lifestyle that works for some people, but it didn't for me.

SPEAKER_00 29:36

Yeah, I remember the first film set I was on, I was talking to the grip, and they were so miserable. And I got really like, oh mate, this is the dream factory, you know, like this you shouldn't be. And then after a while I was like, oh no, I get it. Like it's this isn't fun this isn't what you thought it was gonna be. Yeah. This is very much uh micromanaged, sort of getting it done to a time schedule. This isn't uh fun creativity, and it was like, oh yeah, I could see how that would drive you mad. But yeah, yeah, but I get that. Um watch this segue. Um it is very interesting having that sort of history of uh being not interested in documentary, then falling into the documentary. You obviously did your uh film studies class at Drexel, and you well, your course. And uh there was clearly an interest in film from an early age, and I'm wondering if that was stemmed from the first time you ever went to a cinema or a theatre. So what was the first film you saw at the theatre?

SPEAKER_04 30:38

So this one uh is a f is a funny one. Um I had I've spoken to my mom about this a bunch for years. Um so she claims she took my brother and I to see both of the Teenage McNinja Turtle Turtles movies in theaters. Uh I have no memory of that at all because that means I would have been around two for the first one, three for the second one. I don't really remember seeing them. She said the same thing for Batman Returns, which I don't think I don't blame any parent for that, because I don't think anyone was expecting Batman Returns to be what it was, so every parent gets a pass for that one. Um but I don't remember seeing those. Genuinely the first the first film I remember seeing, I remember uh I must have been in preschool. My brother is a few years older than me, so he was probably in second grade, whatever. So he was in school, and either I didn't have school or I, you know, I ended early or whatever. My mom took me to you know the local local theater, local cinema, to see a re-release of Snow White and the Seven Doors. Oh so that is the first thing I remember seeing in a theater. Um interesting. Uh which some people are like, oh, that's boring, but like imagine being three you know three, four years old, and that's the first thing you remember in a s in in a in a on a big screen. Like that's that's a pretty that's a pretty cool uh memory.

SPEAKER_00 32:13

Old Disney films are technically wonderfully made. They are, they really are. I mean So even if you're not interested in like the stories, like they are beautiful to look at.

SPEAKER_04 32:24

I think still to this day, in in in like the top animation, you know, uh uh college programs throughout the United States, uh, I know that a lot of them still teach, like, oh yeah, Pinocchio is some of the most beautiful animation you will ever see. Um because like yeah, snow snow white is is also gorgeous, but it everything was new. And by the time they got to Pinocchio, they kind of perfected it. They're like, it's okay, we got our process, don't worry, we're gonna make something so beautiful that it will hold up for a hundred years. Whether or not the story does is a different conversation. Sure. Sure. Yeah. Um but yeah, that's that's a good thing.

SPEAKER_00 33:05

It seemed quite old to want uh to want your own boy there, Geppetta. Seems a bit weird.

SPEAKER_04 33:09

A bit weird? Yeah. Little little little bit. Uh and the I forget oh, I can't I can't even remember if it was a if it's a meme or if it was in a you know, some kind of uh you know, um some kind of uh uh more adult animated series, but there's I remember there being something about like someone sitting on Pinocchio's face and asking him to lie to them.

SPEAKER_00 33:43

Family guy.

SPEAKER_04 33:43

It's a family guy. Okay. I'm just like, uh that's yeah. Okay. I mean it seems Yeah. And like, look, I I understand the the the original story of Pinocchio and like why it's important to uh to to Italy and and to Italian culture and history, and it was an allegory for the unification of Italy, and blah blah blah. Yeah, I got it, cool. In pop culture, it's so it's it's a little weird.

SPEAKER_00 34:13

Surface level, which is how a lot of us are gonna take it. Yep. Very odd. Very odd. Yeah, but well that is nice. I do like, and you're saying that your brother is a bit older, so when you were saying like two years, year and a half years?

SPEAKER_04 34:32

He's three years older than me.

SPEAKER_00 34:33

Yeah. Okay, so about the same as my brother. He's about two and a half years for half the year. Yeah, yeah. And um it's a similar thing where I would say that there is an age gap where up until a certain point everything's fair game, but then after 13 to sort of 10, 11, it becomes hard to sort of like split the the cinema trips. So when you were younger, was there a lot of family trips?

SPEAKER_04 35:01

Yeah, I I will say, um, you know, I it wasn't until I was kind of halfway through high school that I even had a thought about ever getting a degree in film, wanting to work in film, etc. But f movies and films were always such a big part of my family. Uh whether it was with my my brother or with my parents. Um growing up, I lived with um my my Nana, my my mom's mom, and my great aunt, uh uh which was my nana's my nana's sister. Um I I had kind of a weird film upbringing in that I watched a you know, a lot of the new stuff. Like, yeah, I I you know I I grew up watching all the all the 80s classics. I grew up with Ninja Turtles and the and the the you know the the the newer Batman what was then the newer Batman films.

SPEAKER_02 35:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 35:57

Um but I also grew up watching like Evan Costello and Yeah and and and watching, you know, like by the time I was 10, like yeah, I knew who Jimmy Cagney was, James Stewart, like I I could John Payne. Like I could go through like all the classic film stars, and then I could go to school and they'd be like, what the hell are you talking about? So like it was a it was an odd upbringing, but like we we definitely took a lot of family trips to to the movies um because my parents just liked they liked going to the theater. Um and I think part of it too was was their their upbringing and the time that they they grew up in because they kind of you know c came of age in the 70s when film was weird and was taking a lot of chances. So like you know, they I I my I remember my one of my I think one of my my favorite stories that my dad has from from when he was growing up was the summer that American Graffiti came out. He said after he saw it the first time, he went to see it every day until he went back to like until like summer vacation was over, he went back to sleep. He's like, I I saw it, I fell in love with that movie, and I went to see it in a in the theater every single day. And I was like, God, and like even in the like even growing up in the 90s, I couldn't imagine doing that. Like I couldn't imagine going to the movie theater every single day. So like just even knowing like growing up with this this idea that film like held such importance to my parents, to the adults around me, I think just kind of really ingrained it in my brain early without even really thinking about it. You know? That's good though.

SPEAKER_00 37:44

Yeah, it's so weird that like um God, I've completely lost what I was gonna say. Completely lost what I was gonna say. Well what did you just say?

SPEAKER_04 37:56

Uh about going to the cinema every day. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 38:00

Um You're right. Like, I I think the most I've ever seen one specific film on an initial release. Like I've seen, I don't know, maybe I've seen a Kira two or three times at the cinema, but over the last 20 years.

SPEAKER_02 38:13

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 38:13

Like, I think I've seen it was Live uh Edge of Tomorrow, Lived I repeat.

SPEAKER_02 38:19

Oh, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:20

I I saw that three times at the cinema. Okay. And I and it was one of those ones where I was like, oh, this is great fun. And then I had to take a friend and be like, oh, you've got to come see this, it's a good fun film. And then you've got to go see this good fun film.

SPEAKER_02 38:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:33

But that was three times, and bear in mind, two of those times was like journalist screenings. So the first one was on my own as a journalist, second one was like, Oh, I've got the multimedia screening, right? I'll bring a friend. And then when it came out, I think I took a partner at the time. Okay. But even that felt like such an obscure luxury of just like, I'm gonna go to the cinema three times to see the same film. Yeah. Like, and it's and it like in such a short period of time. So to go every day, yeah, it's like sounds crazy.

SPEAKER_04 39:02

Yeah, it's it really, it really, it was. Um, and like I think for for I think the movie I saw in theaters the most was probably Revenge of the Sith. Because by that point, like I was I was a junior in high school, and like at that point, it it kind of seemed like, oh, this is gonna be the last Star Wars film ever. Like, they're not gonna make more after this, they're not gonna make sequels to the tr to the original trilogy. All those actors are too old. Okay, fine, cool. He did the prequel trilogy, this is it, he's not making more after this. I I s went to a midnight screening, I skipped school to see it again in the same 24 hours. Like, I probably saw it six or seven times in theaters because it was like, okay, I saw the midnight screening, I want to go see it again, then my dad wanted to see it, then my brother wanted to see it. Um, because my brother was in college at that point, so like him and I didn't get to go see it together. So then me and him did get to go see it together. Then my friends wanted to go see it, and every time I was just like, Yeah, okay. And I think after that it would probably be like Return of the King, because that was another one at the time that everyone was like, Oh my god, I have to see it. So it was like different friends in different groups, and you know, like I saw it with my dad, I saw it with my brother, I saw it with these friends, I saw it with those friends, I saw it with my girlfriend. It's just okay, fine, cool. It was probably like four or five times. Um, but even again, like that's not every day. That's like that felt like a luxury even then, where it was like, yeah, I had a you know, I had a job in high school, but like, oof, I'm spending how much of my paycheck on movie theater tickets, and that was then.

SPEAKER_00 40:34

And for the same film, yeah, when it was like not even ten bucks.

SPEAKER_04 40:37

Not even ten dollars. Now it's like, I'm sorry, it costs how much for two people to go to a movie theater now? And okay. Cool.

SPEAKER_00 40:45

They've got those. Do you guys have uh well we have uh so Cineworld and Odian are our two main chains, and you can get a membership card, and for 16 bucks a month, you can go and see as many films as you like.

SPEAKER_04 40:57

Yeah, they have they have uh I think Re Regal, which is one of the the chains in the US, I think has some kind of movie pass like that. I have a a few friends who who do that. Um I don't get to go to the movie theater all that often anymore uh because I have a toddler. So uh I'm in the I'm in the phase of parenthood where I don't get to go to the movie theater. Uh that phase will hopefully come to an end soon.

SPEAKER_00 41:26

Um toddler will have gone out and got a job and totally.

SPEAKER_04 41:32

No, because he'll be he'll be old enough that I can I can you know take take him. Uh I will say, when I was a very, very new parent and I didn't know what to do with a four-month-old in the middle of the day when it was just me and him, I may or may not have taken him to a screening of E.T.

SPEAKER_05 41:53

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 41:54

And and and he he was it was like right around the time he could hold his head up, and he was engaged and and watched it.

SPEAKER_03 42:01

Got a little Spielberg fan going on here.

SPEAKER_04 42:04

I was like, eh, cool. And it's and and you know, he's he's got all his little golden books, and he has one of E.T. and like and he he loves reading it, and I'm like, ha ha. I may or may not have been part of that.

SPEAKER_00 42:17

Good luck, kid. That's nice. That is nice. I feel like that's the one thing, because I'm I don't have kids, and unless something unfortunate happens, I probably won't have any. Um I that's the one thing that I'm sort of a bit like, ah, I think if I did have them, I'd like to take them to the movies and I'd like to introduce them to movies. Yeah. But to me, that's not worth it.

SPEAKER_04 42:42

No, no, that's not that's definitely not. I will say, as a parent, don't let that be the reason that you have kids. I love being a parent, I love being a dad. He's the best thing to happen to my wife and I. It's it's it's exhausting, but it's amazing. Uh, but yeah, that's that's not a strong enough reason to don't do that. Not a strong enough reason. But I will say it's a really fun perk. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 43:02

It's one of the good ones to have, but not worth it. No. Um I I have heard from some people that uh they watched a lot of foreign films in the period of time that you are currently in with the toddler because they couldn't watch it with sound. So if they were watching something with subs, they were like, oh, just put that on. I've never seen it, I might as well.

SPEAKER_02 43:20

I didn't think of that. Okay, okay. I might have to try that. I'm gonna do that. Fair enough.

SPEAKER_00 43:27

Um so, yeah. Talking of kids, we can move into the next uh question, which was what did you watch over and over again as a kid?

SPEAKER_04 43:35

Yeah, so for for this one, um it kind of depends on on like the error that we're talking about. Um as we're talking about like when I was like a toddler, uh you know, uh it it probably would be the Wizard of Oz. I watched a lot as a toddler. I think I drove my mom crazy because my rotation I oh I actually I can't even remember what the third one was now. She would be so mad at me. Um but The the first uh you know, Wizard of Oz and then when I say Peter Pan, I don't mean the Disney one. I mean there was a uh I think it might have been a PBS recording of a of the of the musical with Mary Martin or was it Kathy Rigby. Oh. Yeah. And like I would watch like I would watch those two on repeat, which uh when I got to high school and became a theater kid made sense, but for a toddler was weird. Um when I got a bit older, I would probably say, you know, when like when we're talking we're talking like five to twelve, probably the Empire Strikes Back. I was just like on repeat. That and Young Frankenstein I just watched on repeat.

SPEAKER_00 44:43

Um so was there a Star Wars fan in the house? Because if Empire only got the re-release in like 99.

SPEAKER_04 44:50

Uh so uh my my both my parents are big Star Wars fans. Um and I remember so the original trilogy got re-released here in the US in '95 before the special edition was re-released in '97. Oh, really? Yeah. So like it was out in theaters here, and my my parents took my brother and I to see it. Um, and we were like, this is the best thing ever. Um and we also had like we had the original trilogy on VHS, so like we would just like we wore those tapes out. Um and then the special edition came out, and then we saw those, and then of course then the prequel started, and so on. Um I you know it's it's it's it's funny. When so my my parents separated when I was like 12. I always my math is always bad. It's kind of a blur in time, but I was about I was about twelve. So that was like 2001, something like that. But it was also around the time that um uh DVD players became more accessible and not stupidly expensive. And around that time it was it was, you know, I'm I'm hitting puberty, I'm in middle school, I'm awkward, I I now have no friends. Like, it was just this weird, this weird time. And I remember coming home one day, and my mom got a DVD player, uh, and she um she got Spider-Man and she got Fellowship of the Ring. So like those are my first two like D first two DVDs, and it was just like I would watch those all the time. And then about a year later, Attack of the Clones came out, so then like that was like another one that I added. So it was like I would watch those constantly. And it was it it was I always thought it was funny because like you know, by that point the Phantom Menace was on home video and we had it on tape, and I'd watch Phantom Menace and be like, this looks like shit. I'm gonna watch Attack of the Clones, and I'd watch the DVD and be like, this looks better, and now I'm like, Attack of the Clones is not exactly the best movie. No, no, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_00 47:07

I love I was gonna say it's the worst of the prequels, but it's like definitely the worst of the prequels. Revenge of the Sith is the only good of the prequels.

SPEAKER_04 47:15

Uh so I will say that as I get older, um, I, especially now, I really appreciate Phantom Menace. There are things in it that I think that didn't work. But I I uh very much appreciate now that Lucas came into the prequels and was like, I'm not going to make the same three movies that we made before. I'm gonna do something completely different, and it's gonna work for some people, and it's not gonna work for some people. I will also say, as someone who is a student of film and works in the industry, and also uh um shoots film still photography when I can afford to, um, I appreciate the fact that Phantom Menace is shot on film.

SPEAKER_00 47:59

That's a good point.

SPEAKER_04 48:00

It looks a whole lot better. It looks a whole of the three, it looks the best. It does look the best. It looks the best. Attack of the Clones looks like it was made of plastic dolls. Oh, it's nice. Like that era of CGI where everything was bendy, I cannot stand it. I cannot and also like it, I mean, like, look, Attack of the Clones is is important to the development of digital cinema technology. Um I think it's I think it is forgotten. And like there are actually I think there are there are a lot of things that are forgotten as to their their importance and significance to digital film technology and how important Lucas is to that, love him, hate him, whatever. Um but it not only like yes, the CGI was bad, and but and like yes, it was one of the first films to be like almost entirely shot on blue screen and blah blah blah blah blah. But also it was one of the first, if not the first, if my history is correct, uh big budget Hollywood films to be shot on a digital cinema camera. It was before digital cinema cameras were like really up to par. But like he went around and like he went to Sony, he went to Panavision, he went to all the places and was like, I want to shoot this digitally. I need you give me I need like I need y'all to do this. What do you need and how do we do it? Um and like they the the I forget the model of the camera, but ultimately it it really was more akin to like what we would now consider like a news camera or an ENG camera, but like that's essentially what they shot it on. And they were like, Well, these only do 60, and he was like, Great, make it do 24. And they were like, Okay. That's not how it works. And he was like, Yeah, that's nice, do it anyway.

SPEAKER_03 49:42

That sounds like a U problem, right?

SPEAKER_04 49:44

Right. And and then when they like when the reason why Revenge of the Sith is is doesn't look as bad, is because the technology started to catch up, and by that point, like more films are being shot digitally by that point. So the technology was exponentially getting better. Um anyway, I've kind of gone off the rails here on a rant. Um, but uh it's to to to segue into something slightly more interesting and less nerdy is I've been um listening to the audiobook of um Roger Deakin's uh new new book.

SPEAKER_00 50:20

Oh, my dad bought me that for Christmas. Well, pre-ordered it for Christmas, so I should be getting it whenever it comes out.

SPEAKER_04 50:26

It is very, very good. It's very enjoyable. I my little parenting hack is when my you know my brain is always exhausted at the end of the day, so like reading uh it's like I read half a page and I fall asleep. I'm like, this sucks. I used to read, you know, 50 books a year, and now I'm like, I can get through one if I'm lucky. But audiobooks are great because I can put on an audiobook and I can do the dishes, I can clean, I can you know fold laundry, whatever. Um but I like that he's the one reading the book. I always like when the author is the one who reads it. Um especially with this one where it's like him talking about his career. But something that I learned that I didn't know is that Oh Brother Where Art Thou is the was the first film to use a digital intermediary for the entire film because the Cohen brothers went to uh you know, they they they've worked with him multiple times, but they go to they went to Roger Deacons and they said, like, this is what we want the color palette to be. Make it work. And he was like, sure, and then full on panicked and was like, There's no way to make that like you can't do that. No. Um he was like, they shot test after test after test, and he was like, all of this looks like shit. There's no way to get what they want. How do we make this work? And um digital intermediaries, which now are very common, and it's like you can put DaVinci Resolve on your computer right now, so whatever. But at that point in you know 99-2000, it was like it was very new, and not every you know, people were using it for certain things, but never for a whole film. And he said, What was the most nerve-wracking thing is like at that point the way that they would do it is they would take the negative, put it in, do what they had to do, and then reprint it. But that was it, there was no backup. So if it broke on the way back out when they were like printing what they did, it was gone. I was like, oh my god, I would throw up. I was the like you are thank you for your service to the cinema industry, sir. But oh my god, that makes me want to vomit.

SPEAKER_00 52:28

No chance.

SPEAKER_04 52:29

I would not do it. Um but yeah, like I had no idea that that was the that was the first it was the first one that and used a digital intermediary for the entirety of the film. And it was just to achieve that color palette, to achieve that look. Right. Because there's no there was no way, and I think still to this day, um, there is no way to do what they did on that in camera, even with digital technology, like there's no way to do it in camera. It all has to be done in post with a colorist. Yeah, Jesus Christ. I mean, he is good. I mean, yeah, he's one of the best he's one of the best living cinematographers, I guess. It's fine.

SPEAKER_00 53:11

Whenever people sort of, you know, like like when I I when I was hiring some cinematographer for something, and I was like, who's your who's your guy? A lot of people would say Roger Deakin, and I'm like, uh you're not wrong.

SPEAKER_04 53:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:26

But yeah. But give me another answer.

SPEAKER_04 53:28

Someone else. Okay, well, here, I'll I'll I'll I'll throw out uh I'll throw out somebody for you that I whose work I really, really love, and I think he gets forgotten about a lot, is Seamus McGarvey.

SPEAKER_00 53:41

Seamus McGarvey, who did um he shot Atonement? Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_04 53:50

So that means, yes, that's right, he did the Dunkirk steady cam shot. That is like one of the most beautiful scenes like ever in cinema.

SPEAKER_00 54:03

A cool crispness to everything that he's shooting where it's I can almost feel how warm it is. Yep. Or how cool it is. Or how cool it is. Yeah, I can just feel the temperature in that shot. And it's so it's such a combination of miserable and a lovely memory. Yeah. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 54:26

Yes, I completely agree. And honestly, I like I I bring him up and people kind of have the same reaction where they're like, wait, he did I'm like, exactly. He is not thought of as like one of the like the best, you know, people talk about, you know, they bring up Robert Richardson or they bring and you're like, yeah, sure, Richardson's great. Um, who am I to say no, he's not? Of course, he's amazing. But like people forgot if people forget about Seamus McGarvey, and I will say that I have very much the same feeling that you do. And um, I think a film in the last year that kind of gave me that same feeling was Sinners. Everything that had to feel warm felt warm. Everything that like I f every single frame of that film made me feel the way that it needed to, and that like the way it was shot, it was just like, oh, this is this is just like a warm hug from a movie, despite how uh awful certain scenes are. It still was just like, oh, I love this so much. Yeah, I I would I may if it doesn't win the Oscar for Best Cinematography, I may ride in the streets. I'll probably be by myself, but that's okay.

SPEAKER_00 55:26

I don't think you'll be by yourself. I think I think a lot of people are shouting for that film to win all 16.

SPEAKER_04 55:32

I mean, that's fair. I get yeah. Uh I I Is Michael B.

SPEAKER_00 55:36

Jordan up for two. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 55:39

You would think you're like, yeah, because he you know he he did both.

SPEAKER_00 55:43

Michael A. Jordan, Michael B. Jordan.

SPEAKER_04 55:48

It's just like in Parkson Rec when Tom has dating profiles and the middle initial is different in all of them. Cool.

SPEAKER_03 55:55

Maybe.

SPEAKER_04 55:55

Maybe that's how we oh N. N was the middle initial for the dating profile that he matches with uh with Leslie. N for nerd.

SPEAKER_00 56:08

Awesome. I can't wait for uh Michael N. Jordan. That'll be a good one.

SPEAKER_04 56:13

Great. That'll be a good one. Nerdy nerdy nerdy Michael B. Jordan. I I I want to see that.

SPEAKER_00 56:18

What's the closest we would have got for nerdy Michael B. Jordan?

SPEAKER_03 56:22

Nothing.

SPEAKER_00 56:23

Nothing in anything that he's done. Like I don't think he can do nerdy, can he? Because he's so charismatic and so sort of handsome, it's very hard for you to like justifiably believe that he'd be and like he can have you know nerdy influences and he can enjoy things that are considered nerdy, but he would not be a nerdy man.

SPEAKER_04 56:46

No, no. He's great.

SPEAKER_00 56:50

He's good stuff. He has good stuff. Yeah, yeah. So what was the first X-rated film you saw, and how old were you?

SPEAKER_04 57:00

Okay. Um I'm sorry, mom and dad, I'm not trying to throw you all under the bus, but it was a different time.

SPEAKER_00 57:07

It was a different time.

SPEAKER_04 57:08

It was a different time. Um the first R-rated movie I saw was Braveheart. At home, not in the theater, at home, and like, you know, uh all the things that either my you know, my parents didn't want us to see, they'd either be like, look away, or you know, any nudity my dad my d my mom would be like, uh, hello, and my dad would be like, oh, and he'd run up to the screen and like you know, cover people's body parts. Don't be looking at that. Don't look at that.

SPEAKER_00 57:40

So it's so weird how that used to be the norm. Like, mum and dad, I don't think they gave a shit about themes.

SPEAKER_03 57:46

No, like, or under understanding that implied violence is kind of worse. Like, no, like that's fine. My imagination is way worse than whatever's on. Exactly. But like, nudity. You just feel awkward and be like, well, I'm not gonna think of it.

SPEAKER_04 58:04

Like, are you kidding me? Like, I remember seeing like I went to the theater to see Titanic, and they'd all, you know, the the the famous scene, they'd all be like, Look away, and I'm like, I'm too awkward to even walk away.

SPEAKER_03 58:14

What are you talking about?

SPEAKER_00 58:15

Like, I'm like, I'm not even guys saying what yeah, that is like it's so weird. Like, I remember we watched Terminator 2 as kids, yeah, and it was the same when Arnie was cutting his arm off, mum and dad just went, well, mum just went, look away, boys. Yeah, and that was it. Like, that's and and now, like, I can't imagine a friend of mine said that he was gonna show his kid um alien. And I was like, Oh, that's a bitch, innit? Don't don't do that. And he and he was just like, kids aren't affected the same way we were, and I was like, uh I don't know, man.

SPEAKER_04 58:52

Yeah, it's funny, but it's really like having a kid now, and like we're we like we we think about like what are like what are we gonna show him? What are we not gonna show him? I remember uh like because my son is a big Sesame Street fan, which for me is wonderful because like my brother and I were big Sesame Street kids.

SPEAKER_03 59:10

Lovely.

SPEAKER_04 59:11

Um and when we were kids, there was a there was a Christmas special. Actually, there were two Christmas specials that we watched a lot. One was Muppet Family Christmas, which is where like all the Muppet characters come together. My son loves that. It's like you know, you have you have Muppets, you have Fraggles, you have Sesame Street, like they're all together. It's great. My son, this past holiday season, asked to see that every single day. Awesome. Fine. The other one that we watched a lot was Christmas Eve on Sesame Street, which was from the late 70s, I want to say. So like why even when we were kids, we were like, oh, this feels dated. But we watched it. Every, like every holiday season, we watched it. At the beginning of it, there's um, like they're they're all the characters are they're all ice skating together. Which it's funny seeing it then. Like now they'd figure out like, how do we make it look like the Muppet is ice skating? Then it's just like a dude in a giant suit. Like you're like, oh, why is Elmo that big? Yeah. Like, why is the count that big? Like it's weird. But um, you know, the the scene ends with uh they're like spinning around, or like they're they're like all holding hands and like they're they're all ice skating together and just getting faster and faster, and someone grabs onto Oscar's like the handle on Oscar's trash can, and he they accidentally let go, and he flies off the ice through a wall and down multiple flights of stairs. Now, when I think of films that I'm like, oh, I don't want to show my kids this, it's violent, etc. That's not one that I thought of. But I showed that to my son, and you know, he's almost two, he got so upset. He got so upset and was just like, nope, I don't want this, and he insisted that we turn it off. Like he didn't he did not want to watch it. He was like, I was like, oh, okay, cool. Yeah, he's like, I don't he's like, I like Oscar. I don't want Oscar to get like what he was so upset, and I was like, Alright, cool. So when I think about my parents showing me like Braveheart when I was like Kevin, I'm like, ah, okay, I won't be doing that with my son.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:20

Are you sure, Mum?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:21

Are you sure? Uh sure sure sure, sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:25

But like I said, before you even said anything, I was like, it's a different time. Like, Mum just you know, there was things I knew there was films we were never allowed to watch with the Exorcist. Yeah, no. Which is funny because as an adult, when I watched The Exorcist, it's not that bad. No, no, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:44

I mean, I will also say though, that like when we were kids, it was still pretty fresh, and there wasn't really anything that like outdid it at that point. And now you're like, okay, I've seen Ring Ou. It's Exorcist isn't that scary.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:58

And over here, the Exorcist was banned until I think it was banned until about like 2000 and something or like late 90s. So it kind of had a bit of a resurgence in them, like when when I was sort of nine or ten or whatever. Um if I was nine or ten. Yeah, it must have been like I was eighty-eight, what year were you born? Eighty-eight, yeah. There we go. Yeah, yeah. Um and it had a bit of a resurgence, so it kind of started doing the rounds again, and that was like my parents were like, Don't watch it. And I'm like, Whoa, okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:33

See, it's funny, I I it was the same thing, like wasn't allowed, like wasn't allowed to watch that, wasn't allowed to watch the omen. My my my family Yeah, Omen was the other one. Yeah, like they like they were never horror people. Like, we watched some Hitchcock movies, but like certain ones that they're like, The Birds is weird. I'm like, The Birds is great, what are you talking about? Um, but like we didn't watch the birds, we didn't watch Psycho, like we weren't allowed to watch any of those movies. So I had never seen them. Even in high school, like I wasn't like, I'm gonna go see them, I just watched the newer horror movies, you know? And I didn't go back and watch any of the old stuff. So when I was a when I was in college and I was catching up to things that I never got to see, that some like I I'm convinced some of the people who were like, Yeah, I've seen Seven Samurai. I'm like, what the fuck is Seven Samurai? Who is Akira Kurasawa? Like, I don't know who I don't know these names. Like what of course I know them now, but like I wouldn't expect a 13-year-old to just be like, Yeah, I've seen that. I've seen that so many times. Like, what are you talking about? I love three hours of Blackpoint Samurai film. What? I love it.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:28

Okay, so but No intermission, give it to me.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:33

But like I took a I took a horror a horror film class and we watched the omen, we watched the Exorcist, and so many people were like, ah, I've seen it. And I'm like, I've never seen this. I don't like sorry, like I I didn't see Texas Chainsaw Massacre growing up, like I didn't see like I didn't see any of those movies. Um and they hit completely differently when I was you know uh 20, 21 years old than it would have hit me if I was you know 10 years younger uh seeing it for the first time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:01

I we had a similar thing, like my family weren't horror people. So growing up, don't watch the Exorcist, the Omen is terrifying. So horror films just weren't in our household at all. And it was a similar thing. I became just naturally quite a scaredy cat. Like I couldn't watch spooky films for quite a long time. And then I I could slowly when I was sort of like 16, 17, I would start watching Halloween, uh I'd sort of like Texas Chainsaw and I started to watch like slashes, but not horrors, if that makes sense. And I quite liked a slasher, and then through that I'd sort of went into the John Carpenter route and saw some slightly spookier stuff, but still not horror horror.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:40

And it wasn't until I got to about ten years ago that I actually was like, let's let's give some horror a proper go. And I realised I had like so like you, I hadn't seen the Exodus. I hadn't seen the Exodus until I was about tr 30.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:55

Oh wow, okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:57

So I thought, I'm gonna read it. I'm gonna read it first, and then I'm gonna watch it. I'm gonna do it the correct way. I read the book, book was fucking spectacular. Chef's kiss for that book. Then I watched the film and the film was a bit of a letdown because the book was so good. And I was like, why is everyone losing their shit over this film? This film's not even it's got some good bits in it, and there's some great performances, and it's all fun. And the prosthetics that were on, like I wouldn't have thought that Max Von Tiddo was that old. Like, apparently he was only in his forties. Uh what was the first film you watched that you considered grown up?

SPEAKER_04 1:05:35

So this one was tricky because like I mean everyone has their own interpretation of like what what does grown up mean? What feels grown up, and you know, how well other people kind of see it that way too. Um and like I said earlier, like I you know, at a young age was watching a lot of older older movies and and and things that that even then were considered. Old that now feel ancient. Um so I I have two the second one as a backup because the first one people may not agree with, but I think the first thing that I remember watching going, like, uh oh, this isn't just some silly comedy. This is like about adult like things that adults get and understand that this is an important thing. And I would say Mr. Smith goes to Washington.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:29

Interesting.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:30

I mean, obviously, you know, I saw Braveheart and that was a you know adult thing, but but but it didn't feel like, oh, this is a grown-up movie. It's just like, oh, this is a thing, and I can't say certain things, whatever, fine. But something that felt like oh this specifically is very much like an adult thing, even though it doesn't feel as heavy as something like Braveheart, it's still like there are a lot of there's a lot of social context and politics and so on to under to kind of understand it. Um I'd say my backup sounds ridiculous, but when you think about it is so grown up, um the dirty dozen. Okay. And when and like I I I had to talk about Seven Samurai. Yeah, right. But like in thinking about it, you're like, that movie opens with not just someone being hanged, it starts like the he someone who is openly pleading for his life, and then has a bag put over his head where he continues to plead for his life. And then he's hanged. And in a lot of in a lot of movies, even now where you the where someone is being hanged in the film, you don't actually see the body.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:47

No.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:48

It's just you see them drop, you hear it, you see the thing tighten, and okay, all right. No, in that one, it like once when he's hanged, like the the the trapdoor opens, and then there's a shot from underneath looking up, and you see the body drop, and and that's and you're just like, oh my god. And I was probab I don't know, probably like seven or eight when I saw that. And I was like, what the fuck just happened? Yeah, like and that's the intro into it, and then you're like, alright. And then like not only like just the the the whole plot of like, okay, so we're gonna get a group together, and then we're gonna go we're gonna go behind enemy lines, and then we're gonna sneak into this chateau, and we're just gonna kill people. Which, like, yes, cool, they're Nazis, okay, war, got it. But like it's not like, oh, it's a strategic thing, we have to take out this tower, or we have to stop these fortifications, or stop this factory. It's like, nope. The goal is literally to go in and kill as many people as possible. Alright, cool. But on top of that, it's like, oh, also, the group you're taking is all of these guys in military jail who did some heinous shit. And you're like, okay, when you talk to all of them, they all pretty much are justifying like why they murdered somebody. And you're like, alright. And then also then you have to understand, like, uh, okay, so Jim Brown is in this, and he's talking about how he did it in self-defense because these these two crackers were trying to kill him and castrate him, and he defended them, and then you're like, oh my god, and then you go to the and then you go to Telly Savalis, who is basically the kind of person who tried to kill Jim Brown, and he's going off on like a sexist rant, and you're like, what is happening? And like, that's and you're like, as a kid, you're like, what? Sorry, someone explain this to me. I'm not like I'm not getting this.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:38

Too much for me as a kid.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:40

And I remember asking my brother, like, can you explain this to me? And even he was like, no.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:47

So I think they're the good guys.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:49

And we're like, ah, cool. And then as I got older and watched it again, I'm like, ah, got it. This is why as a kid I knew there were things I weren't getting. And now I get it. And it's it's a lot of layers of fucked up.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:02

And that's like it is those the themes that you just didn't get as a kid where you're like, oh, because Braveheart. Braveheart is it's action, it's a bit of romance. Yep. You can be a 12-year-old watching it and you're just seeing a swords film, you know, it doesn't really matter about whatever. But things like Mr. Smith goes to Washington or Dirty Dozen, there is a sense of like, oh, you're you're you're dealing here with themes that as a kid I would not have understood. And Dirty Dozen is a bit of an exception because there are explosions. Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:39

You can get away with like the action and the funny bits. Like, we were able to like watch it, and you can get some of the surface level stuff, but like there the surface level on that movie is this. You know, it's like, okay, cool, good, you know, Americans, good guys, Nazis, bad guys, Nazis get killed, shucks, okay. Alright, movie's over.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:59

I'm in.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:01

Alright. I got it. Yeah, yeah. Propaganda, cool.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:05

Um, and then someone doesn't say, like, oh, you also know that uh the Nazi soldiers, they were just kids too. Yeah. And they were being told a pack of lies and they thought they were fighting for their freedoms. And you're like, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:15

Hold on a second. What? Uh okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:18

But the SS were bad. The SS were bad.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:22

Okay, alright. Uh I think in in um uh one of the like s smartest little tidbits put into a war film that I I'm I'm I'm I I go back and forth whether or not I am I'm like I'm angry about them not putting the subtitles on it is in saving Private Ryan and during the the like the the opening D-Day scene, like toward the end of it when it's like, alright, the Allies have control of the situation. Oh right, like they're winning, great, whatever, cool. But there are two two sold two US soldiers walking towards two uh German soldiers, and they have their hands up and they're yelling at them in what they think is German. And then the the US soldiers just shoot them, and then they make a joke about like, uh, what do you say? Look, I washed for supper, blah, blah, blah. But in actuality, they're they were Czech prisoners. They weren't speaking German, and they were trying to tell them, I'm not German, I'm I'm from Czechoslovakia, like I'm Czech. I was forced into this. One of you guys. Like, I was forced into this. Please don't kill me. I do not want to do this, and then they, you know, and it's like, oh my god. I, you know, I I think leaving that as something that like isn't on the surface because it's not the story. Brilliant piece of like little thing that like probably happened a lot during that war.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:55

Um, but also at the same time, I I almost wish that it it was like that subtitle was in there so that you could understand. But then at the same time, it it you know it it it raises issues then.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:10

I think that's the thing. I like that about I like that about all subtitles in that if there is subtitles in an English speaking film, if they're there, you the audience are meant to know what's being said.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:22

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:22

If they're not, you the audience are not meant to know what's being said.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:26

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:26

And I'd like that when they'd sort of they put on a film, like they put I put something on and they're like some Spanish guys are speaking and our guy doesn't speak Spanish, so we're not meant to know what they're saying.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:37

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:37

And I I I hit in the same sort of boat where I'm like, oh, but I'd like to know.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:42

Right. I'd I want to know Yeah, like what are they saying?

SPEAKER_00 1:13:46

Yep and is this gonna be a m mistaken like understanding and all that kind of stuff? But then I'm also like the intrigue of like, oh, but I'm not meant to know. Oh, I like that. So when it comes to that Czech thing, I'm the exact same. I'm just like, well, for a humanist part, I want to know. I wanna know. I wanna know. But also from a narrative part, it's like, no, the reason they got shot was not because they were anything other than non-English speakers. Yeah. That's it.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:16

Right. Right. No, you're you're 100% right.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:18

But I mean that that war.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:20

Like I look, I will say that uh I was I was lucky in that when I was in high school, um, the way that like the the they the way that they you know broke down history, you know, in in uh the American education system is you have American history, you have world history. That's it. Like that's those are the two things, and that's that's how you learn it. And when I was in high school, um the first two years it was world history. And I'm glad I got that first, uh, especially because uh those teachers strongly encouraged all of us, and me, to look for sources and books to read and take in outside of what was being given to us. So by the time that I got to being taught US history that they wanted us to learn, I was consistently getting sent to the principal's office or to my guidance counselor for asking too many questions, for pissing off the teacher, because I was always the one to be like, uh, hold on, are you sure about that?

SPEAKER_00 1:15:33

That's that sounds like something the winner would say. I mean, let me let me put it this way.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:44

The day, like the f I remember the first day of of school walking into that class, and they said, um, okay, uh here's everything you need to know that happened in the United States before the Constitution. Like the the writing of the Constitution was the first thing that that that they started with. They're like, any everything you need to know before that. The American Revolution happened. We won. Okay, the US Constitution. And I was like, What?

SPEAKER_00 1:16:17

Just gonna gloss over that.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:18

Gloss over not even just that, but like you're gonna gloss over like everything that happened in the 300 years before that?

SPEAKER_03 1:16:25

What so what happened? Like what why was there a revolutionary war?

SPEAKER_04 1:16:31

Like, what about what about the Seven Years War? What about colonization? What about the indigenous people that like you know, the the colonists, the British, the Dutch, the French, like everyone, the Germans, like everyone just came in and was like, oh, you're here? We're gonna kill you. What?

SPEAKER_03 1:16:45

We're just gonna ignore that. We and we are. And we are, and I was like, oh, got it. Cool, cool, cool, cool, cool, cool, cool.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:54

Well, it's a it's an interesting. So my family, I look white as fuck, but my mum's side of the family are Indian. So, yeah, I mean I don't look it at all, but like my mum looks Indian. And it's very interesting whenever we hear about sort of clo colonial sort of you know, India and sort of learning all about that stuff. And then when I speak to friends who are from India, and they say sort of like, well, yeah, and like some of them are like I will say this the English put in some good things, but we didn't ask for it. So I appreciate that they did the good stuff, but there wasn't that. And it's like, oh okay. And then when you speak to some Indian guys about like Gandhi, they're like he's a fucking piece of shit, Gandhi. I don't know why you guys love him. Mum's like, uh yeah, go on, give me the guts. Yeah, and it's so interesting, like it's so easy to paint this picture of what is the good, right? Well, we we come off as the good guys if you tell it that way, so let's tell it that way. Right. And you're just like, ooh, but how about the unbi a bit like a documentary? Just give me the unbiased story. Right. I don't care who the winners or the losers are, but I want to I don't want to care. I I I just want to know I want to know who did what and whose names got changed. Right. Like, right? I I don't need I don't I don't care if we come off as the bad guys because it's history. We didn't do it. Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:26

They did it. But I want to know I need to know. I need to know so that I I know how to interact and how also to move forward so when we want to address issues or how how do we make things better? Because at the like at my core, I want to make things like my goal is to make things better for the generations that are here and then a hundred years from now, right? Like like just like Cindy, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:18:48

Like also, I just don't know who's currently here to just have a nice time. Let him fucking live. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_04 1:18:57

Yeah, yeah. Like it's you know, actually, I think so. One of my one of my favorite people in the world is my friend, my friend Tish, who I met in college. Uh he's from Mumbai. Um he lived uh after college, he lived in New York for a bit, and then he went back to Mumbai. And for years he was like, When are you gonna come when are you gonna come visit? When are you gonna come come visit? When are you gonna come visit? And then finally in like 2015, uh I I um I had wrapped up a stint at NBC News and realized like I'm exhausted. I've just been working myself to death since I turned 18. Like, I haven't gone on vacation ever as an adult. Like, I need to do that. So I told him, like, this is it, this is the year, this is the year I'm coming. Um so my first time outside of the outside of North America was going to India. So that was like a culture shock. It punched me in the head the second I got I stepped off the plane.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:54

And the nose.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:55

Yeah, it was. I mean, I didn't want to leave. I loved it so much, but it was it was very much like you said, it was hilarious to me. All the things that I'm like, wait a minute. So this, and he's like, Yeah. I'm like, but what about he's like, yeah. And you're like, ah, alright, cool. And then like, I think my favorite thing that he showed me was he was like, So you see that shitty building that's falling apart? I was like, Yeah, why like it looks like like the oh the wind is gonna knock it down? He's like, Yeah, that was the hotel that the British built that was the Whites only hotel that after they left, we insisted on not ever improving it, and we just let it be what it is, and now it's like a shitty building. Um, yeah, see that over there? I'm like, yeah, that is gorgeous. What is that? He's like, Oh, that's the Taj Mahal hotel. After they made the hotel that was whites only, we said, Well, we need a hotel. So we built one and we built that.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:54

Yeah, uh Tuj Okay Taj Bengal hotels are delightful. I was like, got it. Cool. All right, let's set the bar. Got it. Thank you. Yeah. They're nice hotels. I've stayed in one in Calcutta.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:09

Nice, lovely, lovely. Yeah. I was like, oh wow. It's just funny. And and like that that kind of uh furthered my, you know, okay, what what is what is the actual history and like what is what is the unbiased truth instead of the the the conqueror's version of history.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:28

Like obviously, if that history involves actions that my grandfather did during World War II, I that might be a bit personal, and I might be a bit like, well, I don't want to hear that granddad did anything, you know, war crimey. But I will say this if he did war crimes, send him to jail. Yeah. Like I don't I don't I hope he hasn't. My grandfather probably didn't. He worked in the Navy as a supply ship runner, so he should have been fine.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:55

He probably was okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:57

Probably. It was a different time. But um uh but like if someone says like, oh well, the actions we did during, you know, in India, I was like, well, I've got no living relative who has who has any interaction with that, so you can tell me the truth now. I don't care, you know?

SPEAKER_04 1:22:18

Sorry, my dog just sneezed very loudly. Bless you, ma'am. You want to go back to your nap now? Okay. She's an old girl, sorry.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:27

Oh, nice. Um yeah, I just I you can tell me. I I think also like I'm not that precious about Britain. I can I I I happened to be born here.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:37

That's how I feel about here too. It's like I happen to be like I don't yeah, whatever.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:42

It you give me a chance, I would live anywhere else, but I would also move after living in there for a while. Like, yeah. I I will go wherever I am interested. Yeah. So I'm not precious about like the flag, our history, good old Great Britain. I'm like, well, Britain ain't that great. Like Britain Britain's done a lot of good. It's also done a lot of shit.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:06

Done a lot of shit.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:07

So it's yeah, so um I'm I'm not it's not something that I'm promoting right now because it's not I'm not done writing it, it hasn't been published yet, but something I added.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:15

Yeah, we we won't add this if you don't want to.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:17

Yeah. I mean you can you can leave this part in, it's fine, but something that I am working on does uh address everything that we've just been talking about. Where where uh you know as as a high school student in post-9-11 United States and the propaganda that was just like we were bombarded with, and having uh military recruiters come into high schools and and and you know, the having uh uh ads that were like, oh, you like playing video games? Join the army, and you're like, okay. Uh what?

SPEAKER_00 1:23:55

You know, um and half of my school friends did tours of Afghan and Iraq. Like I was very fortunate. I never I didn't lose any of my guys, they lost guys, but I never lost any of my guys. But like that's not a thing that I I don't want anyone to have to like uh the news would come on, yeah, and that there'd be this war going on, and they'd be told it was about civil liberties and fucking terrorism, and it's like, no, it's about oil, yeah, you fucking liars. It's about capitalism. It's just about the money.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:28

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:28

And I would look at that screen whenever they said that a soldier had been killed and just be like, please let it be someone else's mate.

unknown 1:24:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:35

Yeah. And it's just like that's fucking horrible. It's horrible for everyone involved.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:39

No, it it it it really is. Um and uh I was very I was um in the context of like this thing that I'm uh this thing that I'm writing, I I when before I I had been able to kind of move my brain away from what I had been bombarded with, um, I had asked my my grandfather, my my my dad's father. I actually never met my mom's father. He he passed away even before my parents got married. Um my my mom's father um was older and he he did serve during World War II. My dad's father was slightly too young um and even like just kind of missed the the Korean War.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:26

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:26

Um and he ended up he he joined the army when he was eighteen because the draft was still going, and he was like, Alright, I'm just gonna I'm gonna enlist before I get drafted, like I just want to get it over with.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:37

Joined when he was eighteen, um, and he was stationed in West Germany from 54 to 56. So it was pre-Berlin Wall. It was this weird time where it was like this invisible enemy kind of a thing. You know, and it's like there is no active war, Korean War is over, it's too early for Vietnam. This invisible red commie enemy, and it was it was as I got older, it was interesting to think about that in the context of us of what I was being bombarded with and this invisible enemy, and this like what what is the truth why are we there? This what's the point of this 20-year war? You know, it's kind of the same thing with with the Cold War. It's like, oh, but communism and capitalism, and you're like, uh okay, sure, whatever. Like I if you tell me it's because Stalin isn't authoritarian, alright, fine. But if you're like, because communism is bad, is it? Is capitalism good? I don't know. Like, yeah, you know, that's the thing that always gets me with it.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:32

We're like, goddamn dirty commies. It's like, well, hold on. Hold on. What's there are elements of communism that we should all you know, socialist agendas are not all bad. There are some things that don't service the greater good, but there are other things like healthcare.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:47

Right. Well, the thing that's that's something that I always find hilarious. Uh sorry to go off the rails here, but that I always find hilarious here when people are like, oh, you know, America's not a socialist country. I'm like, right, but Social Security is fine, government-funded military, uh, government-funded police, government-funded unemployment. Should I keep going?

SPEAKER_00 1:27:10

Bailing out the banks.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:11

Bailing out banks, bailing out corporations. The big one right now that that they're that they're floating is like, oh, the AI bubble's gonna burst. Well, don't worry, the government will bail them out. Fucking why? Why? Why so like we can we can like that socialism is okay, but when we're like, hey, can we have healthcare? Can we like have help? And they're like, no, that's socialism. Okay, cool. Yeah, so it's capital. Yeah, it's like this that that's a thing that always drives me nuts. So that's why like I yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:35

I well, I've never understood, and we obviously this this isn't a political podcast. No, but like yeah. It's very much that thing of like, if I was ru well, one, I'm not a arrogant psychopath, so I'd never want to run a country.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:49

Same.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:49

But if I if I were to run a country, I'd make sure everyone was fed. Yeah, I'd make sure everyone was educated to the highest standard that they wanted, and I would make sure. That they were the healthiest fuckers in the world. Because I would like to create a nation where they we have the smartest, strongest, healthiest, happiest people. Because then they will go ahead and they'll create the best things. And if they want to then take those skills and go to somewhere else, I want people to know that it's like, yeah, they've come from this place where you are given everything and you are the most nourished you can be.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:28

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:28

And it's like, right, there we go.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:30

Be happy and healthy and kind.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:32

It's like And if all you want to do is sit at home and raise a family, great. Go be happy.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:42

It drives me crazy.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:43

I don't get uh capitalism. It still doesn't.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:47

And that's why like I I I sat on on I had asked my grandfather to to record stories from when he was in the army because I wanted to know what it was. Oh nice, yeah. Um and he for years kind of waffled on it, went back and forth and blah blah blah. And then finally in like 2018-2019, he gave he gave me the tape, and then he passed away in 2021. So like I'm glad that I got it. And he did it before like, you know, shortly before. Um and then I sat on it for a while, I wasn't sure what to do with it, and and um I it finally just clicked for me uh like about a year ago, and I was like, oh, that's what I need to do. Like I this is what I this is the story that I need to write. So um I'm in the middle of writing it now. I don't know when I'm gonna be done with it. Um I'm writing it actually as a graphic novel rather than as a film. Um because it's something that I don't I don't want to sit on and then be beholden to some because it it would be a period piece for multiple reasons. So you know, it's not something that I can just be like, I'm gonna go make it on my own. Like, I can't do that. Like, I don't and I got the money for that. Like I I would need an investor, I would need uh the the the the studios, the big budgets, etcetera, to make it happen. I don't it's a story that I want people to be able to see. So a graphic novel is one that like I can get out there well enough. Um and have you ever written a graphic novel? Uh no. Uh but I am quite familiar with the the process and how how to do that.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:22

Um I would say the only the only it because I um wrote some short like short like four-page things to submit as uh things and just the formatting.

SPEAKER_04 1:30:36

Oh, the formatting is bizarre. It's very simple. I just couldn't.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:40

Yeah, it's hard. It's very hard. I'll do it as a film script because that shows you everything you need. They're like, no, no, no, we need to read panel.

SPEAKER_04 1:30:48

It drives me crazy. For my film brain, like on the same way, I'm just like, yeah, script. And then like I had written one years ago. I sent it to a friend of mine who is a very successful writer and has his own small, you know, publishing label. Um I sent it to him and was like, hey, what do you think? He's like, your story's great, your formatting is shit. You need to like actually reformat it. So like I went back and he he gave me he gave me some help and and and I reformatted it, and then I sent it to him. And he was like, This is great. Like you should. And it was something that like I was able to get into the hands of of of a label because it it was with a licensed character. Um and the fact that I was able to get something written with one of their characters into the hands of someone at that label is rare because usually they want to they don't want to read those things for legal reasons.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:40

No, they don't want it.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:41

Yeah, but I was able to get it into the right hands, and and they read it and they were like, This is great, but ultimately because I was no one, they were like, Yeah, that's cool. Uh this is really, really good, but we don't we don't want to you know publish someone who is not tested yet in you know in the and I was like, ah, damn.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:59

So And then you go, so how would I be tested? Yeah, like we need to get something published. And how would I get something published? Right, saying that we really want to publish.

SPEAKER_04 1:32:07

Yeah. And that that that drives me insane. That that that that loophole, and it's not just in publishing, it's in filmmaking too. Um it's with it's with art also. Like if if someone's like, oh, you haven't I don't want to take art art in my gallery for someone who hasn't been seen. Okay, but if every gallery doesn't want me to be seen, how do I get to be seen?

SPEAKER_00 1:32:24

Um, just just just put it on put on a show yourself. Right. Where? Where can I put on a show myself? Right. Oh, local community halls. Right, where no one's gonna see it.

SPEAKER_04 1:32:34

Where no one's gonna see it, but then at the same time, when you do something like that, real like you do uh uh something that is uh a self-curated show that you put on yourself, or you self-published a book, or you self-published a thing, or you uh you know, self-distributed a film that just like, oh, but you did that by your like you did that yourself. That doesn't count. And you're like, it counts! What are you talking about?

SPEAKER_00 1:32:54

It's a real fucking thing. It's the real thing.

SPEAKER_04 1:32:56

I made it, it's real. Yes, it wasn't on a large scale because I did it myself and I had the resources that I have, but that doesn't make it not real, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:33:06

I heard something recently that apparently galleries now are getting so uh funny that if you didn't make your own canvas, if you bought a canvas, they don't want it. Doesn't matter how good the art is.

SPEAKER_04 1:33:26

Does does that mean that I need to make the literal film that I shoot on first?

SPEAKER_00 1:33:33

My dad has been an artist for sixty odd years. Um and I told him this, and he was like, What, do you want me to go to fucking Egypt, get the bugs, break it down, and make the fucking pigment for each bit of paint as well? Right. What? Like he was few he was like, what the fuck's it matter whether I paint it on a bit of nothing? If I paint it on a bit of cardboard, which I took from an Amazon box. Right, like who who cares? What the fuck's it matter? Like And he would he was so irritated.

SPEAKER_04 1:34:01

Do I need to construct the camera myself? Do I need to pull you know go go get the cobalt and the silicone myself? Like what what?

SPEAKER_00 1:34:10

What the fuck, man? What the fuck am I doing?

SPEAKER_04 1:34:12

Like it's If you need them to make the canvas themselves, why not just go have them chop down the fucking tree too? To make the to get the wood for the frame.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:21

Well, did you grow the tree?

SPEAKER_04 1:34:22

Did you grow that tree from a sapling? Nope. Sorry, I got I bought the seed. My bad.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:27

You bought the seed.

SPEAKER_04 1:34:29

You got no respect for the hit. See, things like that, aside from the fact that that's frustrating for everything we just said, it's also like when we're in an age right now where there are There's so much AI slop and garbage floating around. Where like really we have people who literally just going, hey computer, make this. And they call themselves an artist because they're like, well, I prompted it. Okay, good for you. You didn't make it. Congratulations. Like, don't call yourself an artist. You're not an artist. I'm sorry. I don't I know that's probably controversial, but it's like when we have when we when we have things like that happening, but you have gallery you still have galleries going like, oh, your art is amazing. You made it yourself, it's not AI. Thank you so much, but also you didn't make the canvas, so go fuck yourself. Are you kidding me? Really? That is like that is the the exact opposite of what we need right now. What we what we need right now is for anyone who is in a position to support art, whether it's a painting, a photograph, a film, a book, a comic book, a graphic novel, whatever, anyone who can say, like, you made this yourself. I don't even care if you made it with a crayon on a piece of like you said, a an Amazon box. Like, you made it, not the computer. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:44

It's also this thing of the cost to buy a roll of canvas and some timber to do these things, to then make it, to stretch it yourself, to tack it all in, to prime the paint, make sure it's all good, have all the time. That's a luxury that the working class don't have. No. So yet again, it is another way of silencing working class artists. Whereas it's like these guys, they're already fucked. These guys have got to work 24 fucking seven. And in their minutes off, they want to create something because they can't not create. They can't not create. That's what they can't they can't do it. And now you're gonna say that there's yet another barrier of entry. Oh, you're using that brand of paint? Oh, I'm sorry, we don't take and it's like shut up.

SPEAKER_04 1:36:31

You did acrylic instead of oil. No, sorry, we don't take that.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:36

What? Get fucked, man. Like I it annoys me so much.

SPEAKER_04 1:36:42

I I I see I see that a lot in in photography where people are like, unless you shoot film, you're not a real photographer.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:49

No. No. No. If you shoot film and you do well with it, then you have a style. If you shoot digitally and you know how to manipulate the camera to do the thing you want to do and create something, you have your own style. I'll even give you that if you have a very specific look which you achieved through Lightroom, that is still a skill. You didn't process it through manual, sure. But composition. An eye, you have to have all of these things. You can't I can't just go take any old fucking shot and then stick it in light box and just let it go, Lightroom, and just let it do its thing. You have to you have to lay it out. You have to have composition. You have to know what you're doing.

SPEAKER_04 1:37:30

You have to be able to use the I it's you know, it's funny. I think back to uh uh it was a wedding that actually Vince Vince was at. Um uh one of the one of the girls in the group was getting married, and uh we had we all had a very good time at this wedding. But um I like to point to this all the time because I'm a ph I'm a photographer. It doesn't matter what cameras in in my hand, I know how to take a photograph. And when you know we're at we're at this wedding, and you know, we're we're at the reception, and it's the first time the couple comes out and they're about to do their first dance, and you know, there's this high ceiling with this big crystal chandelier above them, and then they had like smoke on the floor, and it was a very cool shot. So, of course, everyone had their phones out, and they're all trying to get a photo, they're all trying to get their photo, even though there's a professional photographer, but they all they all want their photo. And my wife hates this story, but uh and if she's listening, don't hate me. But I walked up to her and she was like, she couldn't get the shot. I took the took the phone from her. Everyone's like going up high. I went, I I just crouched down low, didn't even look at what I was doing. I knew like I I knew exactly what I was gonna get, took the photo, handed it to her, and was like, amateur, and I walked away, and it was the best photo that any of her friends had, and she was like, I hate you so much. But I was but my point is that like it doesn't matter if I'm using a smartphone or if I'm using a film camera or a digital camera, it's my trade, it's my art. I know how to use it. I can shoot better on a smartphone than someone who has you know uh a hostelblod with you know Kodak Pro image who has no idea what they're doing. Just because they have the hostelblod with an amazing lens, and just because they have very good film in it, if they don't know what they're doing, they're gonna make garbage. I can't.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:21

The amount of rich uncle dentists who bought themselves a lovely fucking Sony A7, whatever, and then they just stick it on auto and just fire it off. And you're just like, oh nice, what have you got? And it's like I got this. It's like, well, the colours look nice because that's the colour profile that comes on the camera. Composition sucks. You haven't captured a moment, you haven't got the look, you haven't found the moment where they first see each other, you haven't got it, your timings are off. Like, but that that's that's the the fucking nature of anything that's photography. Like, you know, I I I I did my time as a wedding photographer as well. And the amount of people that would like take it on their phone and then be like, what you think of that? And I'm like, yeah, it's it's lovely. It's fine. Like mine are gonna get printed, so they have to be better. They have to be better, like and also they know you, so they're gonna be a lot more relaxed around you. So I've now got to find a way to capture those candid moments. So you won't see me. I'll be out the fucking way, but I'll be getting you. I'll be getting you. Whereas you will be fucking right up in their face with a camera, and then everyone might not be as relaxed because there's a camera out. So I've got to be really discreet with my camera. So everyone's a lot more relaxed. It drives me, Matt. I'm with you on that. It drives me.

SPEAKER_04 1:40:47

That's that's why and that's why I I refuse to do weddings. I I you know it's like Oh, I won't do it anymore. I'm like, I can't I can't, I'm like, I'm not doing it. I'll do anything except weddings. I do what like call me for anything else, but I'm not doing weddings.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:59

I won't do it.

SPEAKER_04 1:41:00

It's too it's too much. Anyway.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:03

It is too much. It is too much. The juice is not worth the squeeze. It never. It's totally not. Um I'm sorry, we've gone very off the rounds. Yeah, that like I just looked at the questions and I was like, oh yeah, this is a film podcast.

SPEAKER_04 1:41:17

Right, right. We have so many more.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:20

Um Yeah. What film holds a special place in your heart? Right. Talking about things that you uh hate, let's go to things that you love. That I love.

SPEAKER_04 1:41:29

Um, okay, so this one was actually of all of them, probably the easiest one for me because it's a very, very clear memory for me. So when I was in high school, uh, you know, I said earlier, I was I was a total theater dork. Like I it it was, you know, my my brother and some and and uh some some of the administration at my school basically were like, you should do this. Um and it was a way for me to kind of get out of the line of fire of all of the propaganda I was getting bombarded with, and I went to a different space and with different people, and it changed my brain and my life and is why I am where I am now. Um so if you asked me when I was a Dorky theater kid, like, what do you want to do? I was I would have said that. But the moment I decided I wanted to go to school for film was when I saw before sunset. I saw before sunset in a theater, and I was like, oh, I want to do that. That's what I want to do. Yeah. Like, I there was there um, you know, I I grew up in the suburbs, so the further out you go in the suburbs from New York, the the um I I I'll say the the odder it gets. Um but there is, you know, you're in New York, there's there are independent theaters and there's smaller theaters and so on, but there's not a lot of that out in the suburbs. And near where I grew up, there was there was one in one of the more affluent areas that when I was in middle school and high school, they'd take us there for like, you know, in Italian class, you're gonna go see La Vita Avella. Oh, okay. Uh La Vita Bella. Like, okay, cool. Or like Cinema Paradiso. All right, all right, fine. Um and I knew about that, but after going there several times, I actually started being curious about what was playing there. And when I saw this movie I had never seen before sunrise, and I saw this movie, I was like, oh, Ethan Hawk, I like Ethan Hawk. Ethan Hawk is great, I love him. I would gladly go see this movie. So I saw before sunset without having seen before sunrise, and still at the end of it, I was like, oh, I this is what I want to do. Um so that one is is holds a really, really special place in my heart because it's something that I still I still carry with me too when I think about my style. It was born of that.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:55

The those early Link later films where it's like Slacker, the Befores, like they're just so well crafted. It's irritatingly wonderful.

SPEAKER_04 1:44:08

Like I think I think what's really compelling about what it's like to work with him is how many people like you you hear a lot about the before series from from like from like Ethan Hawk and Julie Delphi and so on. They talk about like their collaborative process, and that's great, but they're not the only ones to say that. And they say and like everybody who works with him is basically like, oh no, he wants to hear what you what you bring to the table. Like he he's he knows what he wants, but like he's not locked into it. He wants he wants everyone to bring something to the table. Um and you hear that a lot about like the Cohen brothers too. Like, yeah, they have their what they want in their heads.

SPEAKER_00 1:44:50

Well ultimately it's down to their decision. But if you give me everything, right, then I can pick what it's like.

SPEAKER_04 1:44:57

And I think that's and I think that's why a lot of like those like those those link later movies are so good, because um whether it was born of of just wanting to be collaborative and work with people, or whether it was born of I don't know what the fuck I'm doing, uh whatever it was born of, it's I think that's what makes them so good. Is that because everybody who worked on that had a hand in it and put their soul into it.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:21

Also, uh something about Ethan Hawke, like I he seems to be getting a bit of a renaissance recently where he seems like he is the most genuine, lovely, supportive actors out there at the moment.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:40

So he d he doesn't strike me as a person that would work with an arsehole just for the sake of working with a name. He really strikes me as someone who wants to craft. He wants to play the game and he wants to do the craft and he wants to do it all. So when you can see if he works with someone a lot, you just know that like that person's gotta be good stuff. They can't be an arsehole because my boy Ethan wouldn't fucking take it.

SPEAKER_04 1:46:04

I agree. I agree so much.

SPEAKER_00 1:46:06

I um uh Did you see him at um was it the BAFTAs where one of the guys that won a BAFTA, I think it might have been It was Michael B.

SPEAKER_04 1:46:19

Jordan. As he was walking up on stage, just gave him a big hug.

SPEAKER_00 1:46:22

Oh no, it wasn't that, it was another actor. But it was a similar thing where it was um when he was at film school, when he was at like drama school, Ethan Hawke came in and did a talk about being an actor. Cool. And he was saying, like, and at the end of all of this, I'm currently up at a get upper up for an award with Ethan Hawke. He goes, That is spectacular. And then it cuts to Ethan Hawke and he just says the words like, Well, that's better than winning. Yeah. And it's like, oh, and I believe you. Yeah. I believe that you genuinely think, like, oh, I've touched, I've touched the soul of another actor going forward, and if they pay it forward, then that's all that matters. Yeah, you don't need the water. He's like, well, that's better than winning a fucking award. Absolutely. And it was like, Oh, God, Ethan, you're so fucking lovely.

SPEAKER_04 1:47:07

I I I guess it was ten years ago. It was when Born to Be Blue came out, and I went um with my then girlfriend, and she realized how much of a film nerd I I am. We hadn't even been dating a year at that point, so she was like, Oh, you're a nerd. Um, we went to a screening that he was gonna be at. And you can tell that it there was like like the person who was asking this question to him afterward was a student of some kind. Yeah. Um, but also like wasn't fully aware of who he was. So, you know, you know, Born to Be Blue about Chet Baker coming, like making his comeback and and so on. And she asked him, it was fucking hilarious. She asked him if there were any experiences in his life that he was able to draw on for that character. And his answer was like, he looked at her, he was like, Oh, darling, you you don't know who I am, do I? Do you do you have any idea how many times I've been written about that I'm washed up? Like, they've been saying I've been washed up since I was like 16.

SPEAKER_03 1:48:09

Yes, like it's yes, I had plenty to pull from.

SPEAKER_00 1:48:14

And it's and it's bonkers. Like, even I would have said, like, if someone had said five years ago, Ethan Hook, I'd be like, oh yeah, whatever happened to him, he was really good. But the man's been working. Yeah, the whole time. Every day. The whole time. He's even if he's just doing theatre, like he's doing.

SPEAKER_04 1:48:32

And and writing and writing books too.

SPEAKER_00 1:48:34

Yeah, like I don't know, it's such I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. But hey, that's a good choice. That's a good choice. I love those films. Um like I I really love them. They're yeah. There's something about them, like just that whole feeling.

SPEAKER_02 1:48:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:48:52

Oh, especially the like the first one, just talking to someone throughout the night. Like walking through Paris, and you're like, oh, oh, God, yeah, give me yeah, and then giving it some time and we see them meeting up again, and you're like, oh, I don't ever yeah, it's so good. You can't, you can't, there's nothing.

SPEAKER_04 1:49:14

Yeah, yeah, you can't, yeah, there's nothing you can't comp it's they're so um very much in their own realm, you know. And and I think that if anyone any one of the the the the trio was different, they would have been completely different films. Because they like they all like even like um you know uh how he how how Ethan Hawk gets Julie Delphi to get off the train in the first movie, like how it was written, she said to both of them, like, I would never get off the train for that guy. And they were like, All right, how like what would what would it take? Yeah, yeah, cool.

SPEAKER_00 1:49:58

Then what wh why would you leave it? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:50:00

Right. And it's like took the three of them like arguing about this and asking, like, okay, why? Okay, the et cetera, and like having that conversation. And like, that's why it's good. It's not because like Link Later was like, This is it, do that. It was like, okay, why? Okay, let's talk about this. Let's make this real. Let's make it what would it take for you to do this thing?

SPEAKER_00 1:50:20

Because there's some directors who are really they're so like Kevin Smith, he doesn't want you to deviate from the script. And I know that's rich coming from a man who's made a career of Dick and Fart jokes, but like they they work, you know, they work in those contexts. And I loved like those first runs of his films were so good. And Clerks III. I I shed a tear at the end of Clerks III. Clerks III I thought was a really nice, beautiful send-off for those characters.

SPEAKER_02 1:50:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:50:45

But like I guess if you've got a specific thing that you want to convey, that's great. But if a specific thing you want to convey is um personality and realism and this sort of thing that like I want all of you to be taken back to when you were 15, 16, and you met someone.

SPEAKER_03 1:51:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:51:10

And it's like, so you can't write it about how you remember it. You have to write it how everyone remembers it. And then also having a female voice telling you how to write a female character.

SPEAKER_04 1:51:19

That's why it's good. Look at that. Shocking.

SPEAKER_00 1:51:28

Yeah, it's it's so it's so weird. It's so weird when people just decide to discredit that. Um had a lot of controversial opinion.

SPEAKER_04 1:51:40

Yes, yes, I have a lot of those. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_00 1:51:43

Hey, so do I. Uh but what is your uh controversial opinion on a famous film?

SPEAKER_01 1:51:49

Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:51:50

So, like I said earlier, a lot of the ones that are my go-to controversial takes have already been mentioned on the show. Uh especially um Christopher Nolan and and The Dark Knight, and I I'll leave that alone. There's nothing I can say or bring to that conversation that hasn't already been said. I'm pleased.

SPEAKER_00 1:52:09

I'm pleased you agree.

SPEAKER_04 1:52:10

Uh yeah. Uh okay, so uh I also very much appreciated um uh that uncut gems came up also, um, because I feel very much the same way. Um but I I would I would say it it's hard because my the my other controversial opinions are are are less about a particular film and more about uh that is beloved and more about ones that aren't beloved that I think should be. Oh nice. Um I I something that I I say often that I think it's mostly because people don't realize what the source material is, but my controversial opinion on a film that is not quite as beloved as it should be is that the best comic book movie is Road to Perdition.

SPEAKER_00 1:53:04

Well done, sir.

SPEAKER_04 1:53:06

Uh like there are a lot of really, really well shot films across the history of cinema. And I'm sure that anyone can can name something else if they're like, oh, I think this is better. Great. In my opinion, Road to Perdition is the most beautifully perfectly shot film of all time. Um you don't really get you don't really get any better than Conrad Hall when he's like putting in the effort until he dies. Like, you know? Um, but like, yes, it's it's it's different than the source uh a bit different than the source material, but I mean you can make that argument out of every comic book movie, you know? Like, and and I think where I lose people with that and said, like, that's not a comic book movie. Yes, it comes from a comic book. I didn't say superhero, I said comic book. Something that comes from a comic book, graphic novel, etc. Like that one, top forever. Uh and when and since we were talking about Roger Deacons earlier, when Roger Deakons even says in his own book that he looked up to Conrad Hall.

SPEAKER_00 1:54:12

Like When the Greats are looking at the greats. Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:54:15

Like you have like early Sam Mendys, you have Conrad Hall like being Conrad Hall, Tom Hanks, like one of his best, like I think, kind of forgotten performances. I think that's the I think that's the last movie that Paul Newman did before he died. Like early Daniel Craig before anyone looked at him as Bond when he like was playing kind of a skeezy character. Like Jude Law being skeezy in the early 2000s was unheard of. Like it's there's so many things in that that you're like, wait, what hold on a second? Really? Um, yeah, it's it's that is that is one that I feel like people need to go back and watch again and realize how good it actually is.

SPEAKER_00 1:54:56

I will say, every now and then someone reminds me about how good that film is, and that person is never wrong.

SPEAKER_05 1:55:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:55:05

Like, like every time it gets brought up, I'm like, well done, well done for bringing that up. Yeah more people should be listening to that.

SPEAKER_05 1:55:13

I yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:55:14

As a comic book film. Like, well, I think what I was gonna say before is like, yes, it's a comic book film, but the film itself is such a good standalone that you just forget that it was a comic book film. Right. Right, right.

SPEAKER_04 1:55:27

Like it gets forgotten that that's the source material, but like it is. And I think it's one I think it's it's in the category that is a small category of films that are better than the source material.

SPEAKER_00 1:55:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:55:40

You know? Because I've I've re I've re I I after I I after I saw the movie, I went and read the the comics, and I was like, these are fine. Movies better. Um actually I so for a little while I was teaching um uh uh a college level um lighting class. Um and I brought in the the the scene in the rain at the end as uh uh an example of layering your lighting and using um special effect lighting for a particular reason and not just like, oh, it's raining. No, Tom Hanks is behind the rain and you can't see him. And when he that sh that long shot of him walking out of the shadows through the rain is one of the most beautiful things ever. Like it's it's it's it's right up there with that atonement beach scene of just like you used the tools so perfectly, it it's gorgeous.

SPEAKER_00 1:56:51

I mean, obviously there are other films that have done rain very well, but you're talking about a film that is like rain lit, so that so a character could walk through it, which can then translate as let's use its source material as like uh the way you had drawn that is really simple because you just wouldn't have drawn the character until he was needed. Right. So then when you compare that to Sin City, which is another film Hear me out when I say where I'm going. Like Marv in the Rain in the in Sin City is wonderful because it's only dripp drawn in the like where the water hits him, right? So it's it's beautifully done. Fucked up when it got into the film, just didn't work. No, just didn't do it. I agree. So the fact that you can have like that's how you shoot uh rain as if it was a comic book, but done correctly.

SPEAKER_04 1:57:44

Correctly, yeah. Yeah. Oh no, absolutely. Um and uh I what I what I the the thing that I was constantly trying to teach my students was look there is no wrong way to light or shoot a film. And that apparently made not just my students, but a lot of the other professors and adjuncts quite mad when it got around that I said that. And I said, no, it's true. Yes, there are scientific principles that are facts. I'm not saying those are wrong. The art form of cinematography, the art form of filmmaking is taking those scientific principles and putting them in a specific order to get an effect. There's no wrong way to rearrange the puzzle, as long as what you are doing is putting it in an order that gets the effect that you intend. Your job when you are shooting a film is, or when you're a photographer, or when you're a writer, like whatever you are your job is on a film, is you are doing everything in service of the story. So if the point of the scene is for you know Tom Hanks' character to be invisible in this dark, rainy street and feel like the ghost that his character has been built up to be, this ghost that's surrounding them and just destroying this literal mob of mobsters. Yeah, use though, use those scientific principles to your advantage. And instead of what would normally be a scene is like, okay, your your your characters are in the center of the scene and the rain is around them. No, that is one part of it, and then there's another world around that, and that's where the ghost is. Like, you know, it's like it's using it for the and to to serve the story, right? And if if um if they put those scientific principles in a different order, it wouldn't have worked. And it would and it maybe now does that mean that it would have looked bad? No, it probably still would have looked gorgeous, but it wouldn't have been in service of the story, it would have looked different and not gotten the effect that they needed. Um and and and that was something that I I really really tried to drive into my students uh because like that I think is something that has gotten really lost in a lot of recent films where people are like, look at this, it's beautiful, and you're like, okay.

SPEAKER_00 2:00:11

So what?

SPEAKER_04 2:00:12

Great, yeah, it's pretty.

SPEAKER_00 2:00:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:00:13

That I I don't care.

SPEAKER_00 2:00:15

Do you do you know? I know a film is struggling when all of a sudden we just get a branch go in and out of focus as a car drives past. I'm like, oh, you need filler shots that look nice. Okay, you haven't got 90 minutes of story here. Okay, good to know. And you just think like, right, what you've got as a cinematographer who uh uh needed to show that they could do something. And it's like that's not what this is.

SPEAKER_02 2:00:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:00:44

That's not what this is.

SPEAKER_02 2:00:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:00:46

What you need to do is show the story. Yeah, absolutely. And like you might if you've got an ego and you think that the director's got an ego, that's great. It the story needs to be told. That's whoever whoever is telling that story, that's the person that has to be heard. And if that person's not hearing everyone else, that's their own problem.

SPEAKER_02 2:01:07

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:01:08

But when when films just shoot for the sake of shoot, like how pretty was that? It was like Yeah, but it didn't do anything. Right. It didn't mean anything.

SPEAKER_04 2:01:17

Right. Like And see, that's why I feel like that that's why I think that that you know, we were talking about looking for cinematographers before and they kept bringing up Deacons. I think that's why someone like him comes up so often, because every single shot that that man shoots has so much depth to it. It serves every character, it serves every story, nothing is wasted.

SPEAKER_00 2:01:39

It's like you can tell when Deacons has shot it, but not uh from a there isn't a signature. If you know what I mean, you know what Tarantino's fucking written. There's a signature on every fucking line.

SPEAKER_02 2:01:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:01:55

But with Deacons, it's what's the most beautiful shot? Well, it's that shot. Well, that's Deacons. What about the next one? That one. Oh, that's Deacons as well. And you're like, okay, right. Yeah. He's not signed them. None of them look like a Deacon's shot, none of them are lit a certain way, none of them are colour-graded a certain way, none of them have a specific style. They are exactly what that story needed. And it's beautiful. I love it when there's a variation in a creator's work.

SPEAKER_04 2:02:20

Yeah, oh, 100%. That's why, like, uh I forget when it was. I think it was back in the fall on the Criterion channel, they were doing like a Howard Hawkes thing. And it was so interesting to see because like, you know, I've I've thought about Howard Hawks films through being a film student, and of course, you know, just being a lover of film, etc. But like when you have it all laid out in front of you, and you're like, oh, right, his career is odd because he goes from these like screwball comedies to these like drama film noirs, and then he does westerns, and then it's like, oh, he he wasn't uh a uh uh uh a specific genre, he just did whatever was interesting to him.

SPEAKER_00 2:03:06

Gun for hire.

SPEAKER_04 2:03:07

Yeah, and you're like, cool, and and like I that I think in in the last year kind of has given me a bit more like creative juice and feeling like I feel like I don't have any one thing that like I can point to because even you look at the two documentaries that I've written, they could not be more different. Keeper of the Bay and Cherries in Season are have nothing to do with each other, you know, at in any capacity.

SPEAKER_00 2:03:32

Um but I went to a talk in Austin with um the guy who wrote uh he wrote Twisters and he wrote The Revenant.

SPEAKER_04 2:03:47

Whoa, okay. I don't know, I don't know, I'm sorry, I don't know the writer's name, but no, again, I'll find it not be more different.

SPEAKER_00 2:03:54

Yeah. That's the and and that's the thing. Someone was saying uh the Revenant was written by Mark L. Smith, wasn't it? Yes, Mark Smith.

SPEAKER_02 2:04:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 2:04:14

Mark L. Smith. He wrote Vacancy, the whole the American remake of Martyr's Revenant, Overlord, Twisters, like the man's all over the place, right? That's fascinating. When people were saying, like, oh, how do you go from writing like an Oscar-winning like film like The Revenant, but then a popcorn flick like Twisters? And he was like, it's characters.

SPEAKER_02 2:04:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:04:43

It's got it's got nothing to do with the outcome, it's characters. Right. And you're like, thank you, man.

SPEAKER_04 2:04:48

Like you write what's interesting to you and it's about the characters.

SPEAKER_00 2:04:52

And I think the only I say the only, I'm sure there's hundreds out there, but the one that I notice the most is Alex Garland seems like the only director that is allowed to make a sci-fi film, a horror film, a drama. He can make whatever the fuck he likes. People will take it. And I'm and I'm just like, oh good. Yeah, let him. I love him. He's so good.

SPEAKER_04 2:05:10

Yeah, I mean, I I I think that um, I mean, I know he didn't direct it, he wrote it, but I think that Sunshine really gets a bad rap uh because so so many people weren't expecting the genre shift.

SPEAKER_00 2:05:22

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 2:05:23

Uh which like I get why people are like, I don't like the genre shift. I'm like, okay, so what? I didn't go into you know and Avengers Endgame thinking that I was gonna get a messy, poorly written time travel story, but that's what we got.

SPEAKER_00 2:05:36

That's what we mean. You know, I got okay, whatever. But like And also do a better job at convincing me that the world would not be a better place after five years with no people. Like, come on, come on, guy.

SPEAKER_04 2:05:47

Everyone's sad and moping or not sad and like, hey man, I'm not advocating for for for that to be a thing, but like in reality, I don't think everyone would have been sad and mopey for five years and and not continue. Ah, whatever. Anyway, we that I won't get into it. It's fine.

SPEAKER_00 2:06:03

Um but yeah, like uh it a bit like going to the cinema multiple times. Like, sometimes when you see a film that you're really excited to see, you need to see it twice. One to get it out of the way. What are they gonna do? Yeah, right, they're gonna do that. Okay, right. Now I'm gonna go again and I'm gonna enjoy what they're gonna do, you know. And if sunshine's when we're like, well, I didn't like the genre shift, it's like, oh okay, well, now you know it's coming, watch it again. And then know that it's gonna do that. I bet there's some stuff in the front load which is actually gonna service the back now. So enjoy that whole little speckled out story. And it's just yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:06:43

Yeah, I'm with you on that. Like, I'm with you on that one. I'm like, if you pay attention, it makes sense. Yeah, it makes total sense.

SPEAKER_00 2:06:51

He's not a bad writer, so you think that that wasn't mentioned earlier? You think it came out of the blue? If it came out of the blue, it came out of the blue for you.

SPEAKER_04 2:07:00

Yeah, like you were just paying attention to the surface.

SPEAKER_00 2:07:03

You were looking at Sillian and nothing else. Killian, Silly, and whatever.

SPEAKER_03 2:07:07

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:07:08

Yeah, I get it.

SPEAKER_00 2:07:09

So yeah. Yeah. Fair enough. Well, uh, you also have been uh talking about being a very tired father. So I imagine other than a lot of like uh do you guys have like Bluey and Heyduggy?

SPEAKER_04 2:07:25

Oh, yeah, we we we watch a lot of Bluey. We watch a lot of I don't know if Daniel Tiger makes it over there, but Daniel Tiger is uh is is like a spin-off of Mr. Rogers.

SPEAKER_00 2:07:37

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 2:07:37

Uh one that we watch a lot is Puffin' Rock by Cartoon Saloon. Well, we watch that one a lot. Um so yes, I do watch a lot of children's content, but in between I am able to at least watch things at home that I want to enjoy. Um so things that I've watched recently. Um if if I was if I was doing kind of like my letterboxed four, um I know I mentioned uh I I watched Safety Last recently. We already talked about that, so I'll put that over in the corner. Uh but the like the four that I've watched recently, which is a very weird four, is THX1138, Rental Family, Prey, and Muppet Treasure Island.

SPEAKER_00 2:08:23

That is a Yep, it's weird.

SPEAKER_04 2:08:25

It's a weird mix.

SPEAKER_00 2:08:26

It's a distinct difference four very different films.

SPEAKER_04 2:08:30

I will say Muppet Treasure Island because around the holidays. Well, I mean Tim Curry, yes, of course, but Muppet Treasure Island because uh around the holidays, and I mentioned that my son was watching Muppet Things and he liked Muppet Christmas Carol, so then uh we at some point in the last few weeks were like, we should try Muppet Treasure Island and see if he likes it. And then in watching it, my wife and I were like, oh, this is a lot. Like this is like it's a bit more violent, it's a bit weirder, it's a bit a little bit more adult than say um you know, Muppet Christmas Carol. Is not to say that those themes aren't adult, but like as a kid, you can still watch it and enjoy it. But Muppet Treasure Island, we're kind of like, let's just we can turn this off. And then it kind of sat in my continue watching for a while, and I was like, you know what? I want to watch this. I'm gonna go back and start it over. So then I was like, I want to watch it. I'm like, I like it. It's I so like I I I went back and finished it, enjoyed it very much. Um it's it's funny because it's like the the four like two that I've two that were new to me and two that were rewatches. My rewatches were THX 1138 and and Muppet Treasure Island. Um for me, THX 1138. I know like when it came out, got a bad rap, it was really weird in 1971. If you watch it now, it like there are A24 movies that are stranger than that movie. Um, and that like there are parts of it that of course didn't age well, like how they deal with you know, uh like certain characters being little people. It's it's some things don't age well in that. But what I think does age really well in that film is um how they address authoritarians, how they address AI, how they address surveillance. And when you watch it now, you're like, we're actually pretty close to that. That's kind of terrifying. Like 24-7 surveillance, forced sedation, um, no like illegal sexual activity, like you know, it's like all these things that you're like, oh.

SPEAKER_00 2:10:25

I like the meme that's going around as well. That like George Lucas pointed out the problems of a trade blockade 20 years ago.

SPEAKER_04 2:10:31

20 years ago, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:10:32

You're like, oh we thought that we're in '99, but now um, but yeah, so the the the two new ones to me were were Prey and Rental Family.

SPEAKER_04 2:10:48

And I will say I I I started Prey because I I I guess I opened Hulu, I guess, um, and saw Predator Badlands, and I was like, all right, there's all these new Predator things, they keep making them, they keep I keep you know, people like them. I guess I should watch it, but I was like, if I'm gonna watch Badlands, I guess I have to watch Prey. So I watched Prey, and oh my god, that movie's so good.

SPEAKER_00 2:11:09

It's one that I started but didn't finish, not for any reason, other than just things didn't time out right. Okay. Um, but I was very much into the idea. You know what I mean? Like as soon as I was told what the film was, I was like, say less, I'm in.

SPEAKER_04 2:11:24

Like when I saw the trailer for it, I was like, that just looks like Predator again, but 300 years before, I don't care. Watching it, I was like, oh my god, this is Predator 300 years prior, flipped on its head, and I love it. It's like it's so well done. The characters are like so well developed and so interesting, and like what what evil is and what like what the predator is, and like all the like the way it's all addressed is so interesting and so smart. Um, and it was really, really enjoyable to watch. Um Rental family, uh, I had to watch in small doses, not because it's bad, but because um in being a young new parent, everything makes me fucking cry. So every like 20 minutes I'd be like, okay, I need a break, and then I'd have to step away. But it's it's like that's one that like it it the emotions will punch you in the heart. It's I really enjoyed it. And of course, it I think it there's a lot of of you know, you're thinking to yourself, like, well, this is like when's the other shoe gonna drop? And I think that the film does a really good job from start to finish of like building suspense, not in like the Hitchcockian ticking clock way, but you know, of like, oh my god, that she, you know, there's a bomb on the bus, and there's uh they gotta get the bomb off the bus. It's like no, uh like we know at some point that like this person is gonna figure this thing out, and this person's gonna figure this thing out, and then he's gonna be in deep shit. And like when it all kind of comes to a head, you're like the way that they handle it, the way that they address everything, the way that the characters come together, it's just so beautifully done. It's so smartly so so smart. I think like this this renaissance that Brendan Frazier is having is so so enjoyable. Um, because I loved him all through my childhood. The Mummy still is one of my favorite movies of all time. You know, he's great in airheads. Airheads is great, and C No Man is great. Like I could go down the list of all like even Blast from the Past and Bedazzled also both are very good. Like they're exactly what they're they're exactly what they're supposed to be, you know. And if if Bedazzled does one thing really well, it's showing Brendan Fraser's range because every single one of those characters that he has to play in that movie is believable.

SPEAKER_00 2:13:49

Very different characters. I think each of one of them.

SPEAKER_04 2:13:52

Yep, and they're all good.

SPEAKER_00 2:13:53

Um It also points out how bad of acting Liz Hurley is.

SPEAKER_04 2:13:58

I mean, yeah. I'm sorry I'm sorry. She's very pretty, but she's not a very good-looking woman. Very good looking woman. She's not very good actress.

SPEAKER_00 2:14:08

Not a good actress.

SPEAKER_04 2:14:09

I'm sorry. Um I'll never meet her. Oh wait, I did meet her. What am I saying? It's fine. I won't meet her again. There we go. Problem solved. Uh, good. That makes me sound like a douche. Cool. Uh but yeah, those are those are those are the ones I've been able to watch recently. But man, I'd really like to get to a theater again sometime soon, but we'll have to wait till the toddler's a bit older.

SPEAKER_00 2:14:30

Well, I felt bad because someone asked me last week, like, are you going to see anything at the cinema anytime soon? And I was like, I don't even know what's out. I mean, I haven't had time to like think about that. And my partner works sort of like next to a cinema. Okay. So sometimes there's a thing of like, do you want to drive me into the office? And then she's like, and I'll pay for your cinema ticket as a sort of like as your fee. And it's like, yeah, like I'm happy to do that, but I can't do it today. Can't do it tomorrow. Uh I could do it on a Tuesday. What's on what's on on Tuesday? There's nothing I want to see on Tuesday. It's like, uh, then I won't bother.

SPEAKER_04 2:15:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:15:10

And yeah, I have no idea. I have no idea what's even on at the moment.

SPEAKER_04 2:15:13

Oh, I couldn't even tell you. Couldn't even tell you. I I I um Oh, the bride. Oh, I do want to see that. That does look does look like fun. Frankenstein is my favourite book of all time, so I I always see anything related to it, and whether or not I like it, I still there's the new Glenn Powell film which kind of came out of nowhere.

SPEAKER_00 2:15:34

How to make a killing.

SPEAKER_01 2:15:37

Oh, right, right, right, right.

SPEAKER_00 2:15:39

Yeah. Scream 7, Wuthering Heights.

SPEAKER_01 2:15:42

Nah, I'm good.

SPEAKER_00 2:15:45

Project Hail Mary.

SPEAKER_04 2:15:47

Oh, that one might be fun. I I do I do like that author. I do like Ryan Gosling. Could be it could be a fun, fun, fun, fun, fun sci-fi movie.

SPEAKER_00 2:15:57

Um Ready or Not 2? That could be fun. Who knows?

SPEAKER_04 2:16:04

There was a Ready or Not 1?

SPEAKER_00 2:16:06

Yeah, with Samara Weaving.

SPEAKER_04 2:16:09

Oh, right, right. Okay, sorry. I was saying the wrong thing. You're yes, thank you. Thank you. It was good fun. It was good fun. Okay. Alright, fair enough.

SPEAKER_00 2:16:16

Um Well, thank you very much for coming on. It's been a very good uh very good conversation. I've enjoyed myself a lot with this one. Uh likewise, thank you. Not to say I've not enjoyed others.

SPEAKER_04 2:16:27

Uh no, I I this I I know we we kind of went off the rails in certain certain corners here, but I really same, really enjoyed this conversation. Thank you for having me on. Thank you for taking the time.

SPEAKER_00 2:16:36

Oh, no worries, man. And it's always nice when you meet someone who sort of has the same positive views about like film and cinema and like representation and the way that it's just like just don't be a dickhead. Like you know what I mean? Thank you very much for coming on. It's been wonderful to speak to you. And uh yeah, definitely stay in touch.

SPEAKER_02 2:16:57

I will. Thank you, Ted.