Tim Auld - Filmmaker

Joining me this week, Tim Auld

Tim is an award-winning filmmaker with over 15 years of experience across directing, screenwriting, and post-production. He has created work for leading brands including FujiFilm, Foundry, and Blackmagic Design, delivering compelling visual stories across commercial and creative projects. 

As a screenwriter, Tim's work has earned multiple international awards and attracted producer options, reflecting his ability to craft distinctive, cinematic narratives from concept to completion.

Tim's YouTube 

Tim's Website

Juicer

My letterboxd:

My film Reel Terror:

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to Your Life and Film. I'm your host, Ted Bennett. Joining me this week, Tim Ald. Tim is an award-winning filmmaker with 15 years of experience across directing, screenwriting and post-production. He has created work for leading brands including Fujifilm, Foundry, Blackmagic Design, delivering compelling visual stories across commercial and creative projects. As a screenwriter, Tim's work has earned multiple international awards and attracted producer options, Black and Bugger, reflecting his ability to craft distinctive cinematic narratives from concept to completion. One of uh Tim's films, Jupiter, which I've linked below, is a great watch. Good and weird, some wonderful, like creepy visuals. So do check it out. When we started the recording, I noticed Tim was sat in a gaming chair, and I was like, Oh, a gaming chair, do you game? And we started talking about video games. So that's where the conversation starts. Us talking video games.

SPEAKER_02 0:55

They just haven't won me over. And especially when they bought Bethesda, I was like, okay, this this'll be the thing, you know. And I'm still waiting. I was like, what are you gonna do, Bethesda? You've done nothing. They do nothing all the time.

SPEAKER_01 1:08

I there's something about Bethesda games I just never I never get into them. Like, Skyrim was just not a game that I fucking cared about. And what was the other one they did?

SPEAKER_02 1:21

Uh Fallout.

SPEAKER_01 1:22

Fallout. Like Fallout I have given so many tries. Like, and I'm talking like, you know, uh fucking New Vegas three, four, like the last time we played Four was uh I think it was just after the second series of the TV show had come out. Yeah. And I said to Kirsty, like, look, I'm gonna give it a go again. It's six quid at the moment on Xbox. Like, let me let me try again. Yeah. And we we were both playing it. Like she was watching me play it, and she was like, Oh, maybe I will play this. Because she's a bigger gamer than me, she's a like a bigger gamer than I'll ever. And I I I was playing it and she was playing it. And we were both sort of like just taking it turns, sort of like, oh, play your save, I'll play my save, how far are you, how far are you? But every time we talked about it, we were like, ah fuck, I I don't like this. And it's like, no, I don't like this either. And it's like it's so fucking annoying. And in the end, we were like, Why the fuck are we either of us playing this? Neither of us like this game, but we're just sort of like turning up every day and being like, go on then, now what do I need to do? And it was like uh hoping it'll win you over. It'll one day it might, because I really enjoyed the show.

SPEAKER_02 2:36

I don't I think it would have by now if it was going to, you know. I I my Bethesda journey started with Morrowind, which was really hard to get into for the first few hours, and then there's a kind of hump that you get over, and then it becomes ri for me anyway, it became really sort of uh obsessive, and then played through all of that, and then when Oblivion came out, I was like, that's what I want, and that was amazing, and then so I was kind of committed on that journey, but I I never played Fallout either. So and I always thought, Why haven't I played that? But now I don't need to.

SPEAKER_01 3:12

No, I don't think you do. I think the show does a lot more for that sort of like for that sort of like moment of wonder, like, oh what is this, what is this doing for me? Yeah. I I think the show does it for me better than the game ever does, and I'm sure for some people the game is you know, yeah, tip top. It does it wouldn't be making the numbers it's doing had it not been for that. But like yeah. Um so yeah. So what are you what are you currently playing?

SPEAKER_02 3:43

I've gone back to play control again because it's been a few years.

SPEAKER_01 3:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:47

And I loved it when I first played it.

SPEAKER_00 3:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:50

And uh I sort of got like the free upgrade to the PS5 version of it, so I was like, why haven't I played this again? So I loaded it up the other night and it's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 4:01

Are they doing isn't the same studio doing a new game soon? The sequel. Oh, it's a straight-up sequel.

SPEAKER_02 4:07

Oh sick. So yeah, I've got that, and I haven't yet played Alan Wake 2, which the same studio made.

SPEAKER_01 4:13

Uh but I want to. So I didn't realise they had done Alan Wake, because I said to Kirsty, like, do you want to play this Alan Wake game? And she was like, Nope, too scary. And then she was playing control, and I was like, Oh, you seem to be loving this. And she was like, Yeah, yeah, this I like. And I was like, I don't know. I don't know why you're stipulating this you like, but sure.

SPEAKER_02 4:32

Yeah, they did the original Max Payne as well, and um they've they're really interesting studio, and uh they just make really different, interesting games and control. It's weird. I love it. It's like a David Lynch film, but it's also got this FBI side to it, and it's um yeah, it just doesn't explain itself. You just uh oh did you play it?

SPEAKER_01 5:01

No, I watched Kirsty play it. I didn't play it.

SPEAKER_02 5:03

Yeah, the gate and and it's fucking fun. That's that's the thing, like I don't I'll play, I'm very um I'm a real layman when it comes to games. Like, give me a give me some guns and some red barrels, and uh I'm happy. You know, as long as it's fun, I don't need a great story. But if you do a great story, that's just even better. And I and gaming can be something quite sublime when it gets it all right, you know. Um but but it's also because of the the entertainment kind of angle of it, you don't need it necessarily. No. Uh it's just when you don't have it, when you've got a shit story, you kind of go, oh, they could have done more with this. But um but I also don't necessarily need it.

SPEAKER_01 5:53

Fair, fair, fair, fair. No, I know what you mean, like whenever I'm sort of gaming, I'm not uh the kind of gaming person who's that adamant about like oh, does it all neatly tie up? It's like I just like you, it's like, can I run around and shoot and climb? And are you gonna let I I really like an open world for this reason? It's like are you gonna let me just crack on?

SPEAKER_00 6:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:18

Like I'll do your your little missions, I'll do your story, but I'm gonna do my own thing, that's what I want to do. So when a game gets too prescriptive about like you can go this way, and I'm like, eh, nah, you're right. Yeah. Like, here's the story, and this is what you're gonna do. And it's like, you make make a film, make a film and show me, tell me. But don't the only other game that I've really sort of sunk a lot, I was gonna say too much time, but I'm I'm thinking about playing it again, is Cyberpunk.

SPEAKER_02 6:49

Yeah, I I did it once.

SPEAKER_01 6:51

I've yet to reload it up, but I will. Um did you play it before the patches? And did you play it before the DLC?

SPEAKER_02 7:00

No, I I played it before the DLC, but it had been patched a lot by the time I played it, so it ran perfectly well. I played it on PS5, so it was it was fine. I didn't have any trouble with it. Um I kind of waited. I was watching it I was watching all that happen, and I was like, I'll just wait, they'll fix all this. It'll come about, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I and I loved it. I I loved it. But uh I'm probably still team Witcher 3 when it comes to comparing the that studio and their previous work, but I I think Witcher 3 just has a better story and it's just it's uh yeah, it's just it's just better in that sense, but but Cyberpunk's so deep and um in terms of a game, like what you actually can do in it, it's worthy of like I currently have a stack of all the RPG books for Cyberpunk.

SPEAKER_01 7:51

Right. You went hard. Well, Cyberpunk is um like my complete jam. Like anything that is in the cyberpunk world, films, books, like music, yeah, I love it. So when there was a video game of it, this is to date the only game worth your time if you're a cyberpunk fan, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_00 8:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:13

So like it's I feel like if you like The Witcher, you can get most of that from Skyrim. It's that sort of sword and sorcery, it's fable, it's it's oblivion, it's it's you know, it's all of those things. It's um what's it called? Bard? What's it called? There's like Boulder's Gate, baby. Curse he played it like a dozen times. I feel like you can get that world very easily in other games, whereas with Cyberpunk you just don't. So like I think they nailed it. I think the DLC was like an excellent game that happened to be a DLC. And yeah, like it's on my list.

SPEAKER_02 9:00

I haven't played the DLC, but I know that my path will lead back to Cyberpunk at some point because it's just too big and too good, and I love the studio and I love the ambition of it as well. Like, that's a big thing for me. I don't a game doesn't need to fully succeed in what it tries for as long as it tries for something. I get annoyed with safe uh a little bit, and um, you know, it's Cyberpunk is is worthy of your time. So I mean there I I remember there was like one mission that just went so dark, and I was like so glad that it they they went there with the material. I was like, kudos to you for fucking going there, you know.

SPEAKER_01 9:45

I I I love that even the happy ending of the game isn't happy.

SPEAKER_02 9:51

Well, I don't know, I only saw one ending, I didn't bother YouTubing all the other endings, and um, but yeah, it I I think it was happy.

SPEAKER_01 10:00

Yeah, I mean that's the thing, like you you sacri like eve every single one you have to sacrifice something to end. And what I like about the whole cyberpunk aesthetic is always that thing of like we weren't expecting you to live, so yeah, yeah. Like you ending is existing, don't worry about it. And it's like, ooh, ooh, that's miserable and I love it. Like it's Blade Runner 2049, Kay dying on the stairs before he even sees the mission through, really. And you're like, Yeah, that's the point. Like, yeah, you might make it, and it that's that, and I I I'm a big fan of that.

SPEAKER_02 10:40

Yeah, I mean what uh it's it's such an interesting uh art form now, and it's it's just living in its golden age right now, even though I think some people think the golden age was the early like the Xbox 360 PS3 era, which was amazing. Um that was gr that was a golden era for like a lot of firsts. So like Mass Effect is like my jam. That's like I've played through that many, many times, and um that was like someone had basically made the perfect game for me. And that generation had a lot of those firsts. Last of us was in there, you know, a lot of these firsts, but this generation is different, they're not they're not doing many firsts, but they're redoing a lot of things in such an amazing way, and also just there's nothing they can't do anymore, technology-wise. Oh, yeah, so totally yeah, we're we're I would say in that sense we're in the golden era of of gaming.

SPEAKER_01 11:41

No, I think I agree. I think there's it's the the consoles were in their golden era back at the 360 and sort of like the PS2, PS3 era, because they just were like there was just a wealth of games, like you're saying, firsts or you know, just fucking like um what was it, Ratchet and Clank. Like just great platformers that were fun. And obviously it was before the all the fucking microtransactions and all that kind of shit. Which I found out was perpetrated by Epstein, not a joke. Um honestly, like another thing, another fucking thing. Some would say the worst thing, but you know. And uh like they like back when a game you got a whole game and everything on the disc is everything that you needed. So if you want that cool skin or if you want that cool gun, complete the game and complete it on a different difficulty and play it multiple times. And like just for that reason, I feel like games were better for a period of time. But yeah, they've gotten easier ever, yeah. Yeah, like considering that like some of my favourite games, like Ghost of Tsushima, yeah, one of my favourite games, yeah, Cyberpunk, one of my favourite games, and like the Spider-Man, like I'm gonna say one, two, and Mars Morales, like all three of them I'm gonna count as one like one of my favourite games. And it's sort of like right, well, all of those are in the last three years. So mate, would you expect like that that's clearly like these are the best games, you know.

SPEAKER_02 13:21

I mean, it has changed the expectation of the player has changed in the last 20 odd years or so because if you go back and play the first splinter cell, yeah, the expectation on you as a player, it's fucking challenging. The first mission will is enough to make people either quit or go, alright, I'm gonna commit to getting better at this. And the same with like Ninja Guide and same thing, get your ass kicked in the city.

SPEAKER_01 13:47

I don't think I got past that first level of splinter cell. Like, I'm fairly certain, like every time I played it with a buddy, we'd get to the same point, and I'd like, you know what? Sneaking games aren't for me, this game's shit.

SPEAKER_02 13:59

I mean, that game would give me a little anxiety before then like you'd finally conquer the mission, and then you'd be like, now we're in this new mission, and that it's it's that opening frame of the new mission. I'd be like, Oh boy, here we go. Oh shit. But you do get better at shit, you get better at anticipating, and it makes you a better player. Today, games are super, super um accommodating. It's like press X now to win.

SPEAKER_01 14:29

And then like something. I want what's the middle ground between that and then like Sekiro or Bloodborne or like whatever lost.

SPEAKER_02 14:41

Yeah, because I don't have the patience for those fucking games either. I don't want to get my mouth kicked for 100 hours. No, you know, so I never played El Elden Ring and all that because I'm like, I know, I know it would be great, but I'm a dad and I don't have time. And I just want to I just give me like Uncharted is the best thing for a guy like me. It's like Uncharted is 20 hours, 50 Yeah, and it's just like let me just have fun. And I can choose to get better at it if I want to, but I also can get through it fit if I want to.

SPEAKER_01 15:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:12

Um I think that's a nice middle ground.

SPEAKER_01 15:14

I replay those games probably every other year. Yeah. I'll do all four back to back and not notice that time has passed. Yeah, I know man.

SPEAKER_02 15:25

I I did I start I go back to the first one rarely, but I started just a couple of months ago and went back to two.

SPEAKER_00 15:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:31

And went two, three, four, and then lost legacy. And the I mean the jump up to to four is exceptional, but two and three still they've aged beautifully. They still incredible games, they still look amazing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:47

Um and you go, how is this from 2009? And just so satisfying. Like it it is a big roast dinner on a cold day, those games. Because you're just like you you're done playing and you're just like perfect. Yeah, that's all I needed. I did some running, some gunning, yep. Everything I need. You got good story, and then you just think like, why, why, why, why can't why couldn't they make a film off of it? That baffles my mind.

SPEAKER_02 16:15

Oh man, they just I've tried multiple times to watch that film and I can't get past about the 40 minute mark.

SPEAKER_01 16:21

Like, I like Tom Holland. He was the wrong choice. Like So was Mark Warburg. Marky Mark was the the worst. Not the right guy. Brian Cranston should have played. Oh, that'd be good. Yeah, yeah. There it is. That's who it was. Yeah, yeah. And like unfortunately, we all know who would have gotten like Nathan Drake now, and it would have been Crispy Rapp, but like it's just Chris Pratt seems to be in everything, and that's seems to have been the perfect role for him because it's the Nathan Fillion of twenty years ago. He's just done too many of these types of roles though. Yeah. And it's but like, yeah, I think it would have been it could have been so much better. I think if they had started earlier and they tried to make more of like a young like Nathan Drake, yeah. But they went too quickly into like, oh, but this is also the modern day version as well, and it's like no.

SPEAKER_02 17:23

No, no, no. I think they also missed the trick with regards to the character, because what we love about Nathan Drake is the same thing we love about Indiana Jones, in that he's always way over uh in out of his depth.

SPEAKER_00 17:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:39

And somehow through ingenuity and sometimes cheating, he gets what he needs. Like he gets he passes through the obstacle, and that's the same charm that's in the games. Like he's never he's never safe, he's never he's he he has the little moments where he's like, ah, that was that was dangerous, and then that's at that moment that's when the tiles start breaking under him. He's like, shit, you know, and we love. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:08

And obviously, Nolan North's performance is a huge part of that. Like, it's such a good, like, solid performance for the whole thing. What I really liked him for was that they didn't go supernatural in any way. I kept expecting some sort of pirate to like zombie pirate to appear or just some weird creature, and they didn't do it, and I was like, fair play.

SPEAKER_02 18:33

Yeah, because they do go supernatural with the Tomb Raider series, which I also loved. Um it sort of goes across over the it just steps over that line of, oh no, no, it it is supernatural, okay. This thing's a go, it is a ghost or whatever it is, you know, and undead undead samurai and things like that. I don't mind that, but it it's it's a commitment you've got to make, isn't it? It's like it's either this or it's this, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:58

So is uh your wife is it your wife?

SPEAKER_02 19:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:02

Is it your is it your wife is she a gamer at all?

SPEAKER_02 19:05

Not since Goldeneye on the Nintendo 64. Why why go any further when you've achieved greatness? I think she was like, this can't get any better, so yeah, I'm gonna quit now. Fair, fair, fair. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, just for fun, I downloaded like the Sonic uh pack or whatever you can get, Mega Drive pack on the PlayStation. And if you want a reality check about how hard games used to really be, don't play a game from the 80s or the 90s, and you're like it's brutal.

SPEAKER_01 19:37

So hard.

SPEAKER_02 19:37

And so we tried playing it and we're because she was like, Oh yeah, Sonic, I remember this. And she tried to play it, and she's like, dead, dead.

SPEAKER_01 19:44

Yeah. And I didn't even know there was a third level. Because I never fucking saw it. I know, man. Yeah, yeah. Shift in lava got me every fucking time. Like, I built a full working double player arcade cabinet a few years ago. Like when I first moved in. Oh mate, I'll send you some photos. It was dope. I had a fucking banner with lights and all the sounds and all that kind of stuff, and I could play everything from like Atari, whatever, all the way up to about PS1, PS2. Cool. Um so I, you know, I had every game through legal uh means, obviously. Of course. Um but the only two games I played were uh Road Rush because I love it, and Sonic One. And Sonic One I there was a button you could press rewind because it was on the pie. So if you died, you could just rewind and be like, right, okay, I'll try that jump again instead of losing a life now and starting over from the beginning. Yeah. And only because of that did I get to the mission where you're hanging on the side of an aeroplane. Oh yeah. Like right there. And I had never been anywhere near that far. I remember a friend once figured out like a cheat code that you could do in, and then you could pick your levels, like when we originally had Omega Drive. And I saw them do that once, and there was that like uh pyramid. Is it the pyramid? Like you're inside a pyramid and you're like sliding down the waterfalls in the pyramid or something.

unknown 21:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:23

That's the o like that's the only other mission I remember. And if it wasn't for that cheat code, I there's no chance I would have ever seen past like the casino level, you know?

SPEAKER_02 21:32

Yeah, so I mean I've been a gamer since the Atari 500 or whatever it was called back in mid 80s. And then so I remember I remember the Super Nintendo coming out. I remember it being a news story, and it's like, and there's a new console called the Super Nintendo, which will be available at Christmas. And I was like, Well, and I remember just seeing like stills from F Zero and thinking games that were and I I literally remember thinking, Well, that's it. Graphics just can't get any better than that. A game could never look better. Yeah, no, it's amazing what you what you don't know. It's a it's like that Play-Doh's Cave scenario where you only know what's in front of you, and you you just when you without the enough information, you can't actually imagine anything being better. And obviously I was seven or eight years old, but but I just remember being blown away by the graphics on the Super Nintendo. Um because I had a Nintendo original, and I'd been playing Commodore 64 games and fucking Atari games, and and that and they looked good to me as a six, seven-year-old. And then this thing comes out. Oh my god, it was yeah, what 16-bit? I don't know what that means, but it sounds great. And uh it's twice as many bits as I'm used to. Yeah. It was, but but back in those days, you have you get the magazine, like the PC mag or whatever the Nintendo magazine, and in that it would have those cheat codes. It would be like up, up, down, down, left, right, left, right, yeah, X, Y, you know, and you'd have to memorize this fucking thing, 24 input codes that you do at the at the at the screen that first comes up, but you've only got three seconds to do it, otherwise it doesn't work, and yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:21

Fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck. Yeah, it's the worst. So I'm pretty sure if you were to hand me a PS3 controller, I could probably put in the like infinite ammo glitch like on every GTA game. If you give that to me, I can't if you were to ask me what it is right now, no idea. I can't say it, I can't verbally express it. But if you give it to me, the muscle memory in my fingers will be like, there's all the game, there's everything you ever needed. Why don't you just tell me what it is?

SPEAKER_02 23:48

I don't know what it is. I think what's funny is even it's only now in in the j with the tech that we have now in gaming that I can now see we kind of plateaued a little bit. Games just look fantastic, yes, but it doesn't have the same leap that it used to, because the experience I had from Nintendo to Super Nintendo, it was the same for the for the preceding like generations that came. So I rem I very distinctly remember the first PlayStation or the Nintendo 64 and seeing like Mario in 3D, and again having that same reaction of, well, that's it, that's it. It doesn't get any better. I couldn't, how could it? And and even try just seeing that game world, it seems to be never-ending. I was like, there is no end to this game world, like, where's the walls? There isn't any. This game it goes forever. That's what it seemed. And then the next generation came out, which was uh yeah, PS2 and Xbox, and I had the exact same thing. I was like, that's it, that's it. We've now we've peaked. And then again, 360, we're now in HD. And it's like, oh my god. Yeah. And uh so I think it was probably the generation that followed that where I was like, okay, it looks better, but it doesn't look like a generation better. And then obviously PS4 to PS5 generation, I mean, there's almost no difference. You you play Uncharted 4 now, it looks better than games that come out today.

SPEAKER_01 25:17

You can you can tell me ray tracing is a thing. And I couldn't give a fuck. Look at the reflection. I'm like the reflection that I fucking gunpassed and never looked down. Exactly. My footsteps in the puddle and it becomes a rippling it doesn't matter what you put in the puddle. I don't care, man. No, I'm I I know what you mean. I mean, even like with films, I'm fairly certain, like DVD to video, I was like, oh my god, this is what these films are meant to look like. Now if I watch DVD, I'm like, have they have they made them shitter? Because they didn't look like this. They looked so much better. And then I watched Blu-ray, and then it was like when I when Blu-rays came out, I was like, there's no need to ever upgrade these films. These films are perfect in Blu-ray.

SPEAKER_02 26:03

I know.

SPEAKER_01 26:03

And now there's 4K, and I'm like, oh, okay, actually, no, I can tell the difference between them. But again, I'm saying the same thing, like, I'm not gonna rebuy all of my films when the next generation of whatever physical media comes out, because it can't get any better than 4K. Well, I think we're done with with physical media, unfortunately. As Sony just announced that they won't be producing any physical games. That's kind of it, isn't it? Which is miserable.

SPEAKER_02 26:32

It's miserable. Yes. Yeah, I know. I love having a library like you clearly demonstrate behind you, you know, and there's something nice about just having real books and real CDs. I'm still a C D guy if I I mean I I don't tend to buy them, but I've still got them all and I still treasure them. Um and same with Blu-rays and 4K Blu-rays and stuff. But yeah, I don't think we need to go any higher res.

SPEAKER_01 26:57

People get about pixels. Your eye can't process, I think, any higher than five or six, Kenneth. I think there's a thing of like your eye physically, like 8k is pointless because even the human eye can't process 8k any further.

SPEAKER_02 27:13

Like it depends on how big the screen you're looking at it is and how close you are. But yeah, I think you're right. In in practice, anyway, you're definitely right. Like you my TV behind me, I'm sitting, you sit in my couch, you're about two metres from that TV, and that's by design, because I knew I only I don't need to buy the 65 inch, the 55 fits within that visual field perfectly fine, and it's 4K and it's HDR. It doesn't need to get better than that for the viewing situation that I'm in. I'm not projecting it on a 200-foot screen.

SPEAKER_01 27:45

In brilliant data, like I don't you know what I mean? It that's always the same because we've got a similar thing downstairs. Ours is the 65, but we're about three meters away. So to us, it's like when I look, I see everything I need to see. I'm not craning my fucking head to get to the corners, is what some people do. Yeah. And it's like um my father-in-law was sort of saying, like, oh, would you ever upgrade to like an OLED or a QLED or whatever the f whatever the the the inkiest of blacks you can have, and I was like, Well, I I would if if I had all the money in the world, I would have a fucking full 4K cinema in my house. Like but in my setup, I don't need it. The TV does everything I need. I don't wear my fucking glasses half the time, so I'm not even getting the benefits off 4K.

SPEAKER_02 28:40

Like so Well, uh let me ask you this. When you go to the cinema, does it look good enough for you? Yeah. And you're not even watching it in HDR.

SPEAKER_01 28:50

No.

SPEAKER_02 28:51

So, you know, all this stuff about HDR is fine for televisions. Uh, and it is great, but you know, we don't need it in the cinema. We don't have it in the cinema.

SPEAKER_01 29:00

Also, those projectors are old as fuck. Like, I worked at a cinema in 2008 and there was a Christie digital project projector, and it was beautiful. You know, it was a fucking top of the line beautiful projector. If they've replaced that in that cinema, I'd be surprised. But you can't tell. Like it's a huge screen and it's a it's a huge I will actually say there are certain things that I do notice at the cinema. I went to go see uh Disclosure Day of Spielberg's most recent terrible film. And the the text was pixelated. You mean the uh graphics that they had at the beginning and over titles or something like that? Or like the opening credits, the opening credits and the closing credits, yeah, the like the lines were all pixelated and not intentionally. It was like clearly like an artifact of just like this doesn't this is this is wrong. And you just think like, well, if no one's caring, if people are just throwing it out there, what's the fucking point?

SPEAKER_02 30:08

But yes, it's yeah, I mean uh like I I uh I talked about this to some some of the actors that I was working with on this short recently, and and uh about how we've gone a little too far with fidelity of image. Uh like it's good to have the option in the acquisition side, like with the camera, right? Camera on set, obviously you get more pixels than you need, you get more bit depth than you're gonna need, you get to see every you get to see the the fleck of dust that's embedded in the skin pore on the actor's face. Cool. Great, that's in focus, cool. But what you then do in post is then start trying to remove all of that and actually introduce noise into the image because that's what we should actually need. And that's why if people people, you know, they talk about the wrong things when they talk about image quality. I think what they need like fuck resolution, what you need to talk about is actually like the quality of the compression, the video. That's why that's why when you pull out a DVD or a Blu-ray, you go, oh no, there's banding in the background there around the moonlight. And when you switch to the 4K version because it's H265 and it's 10-bit, it's it's the banding's not there. So, or at least it's really minimal. So there you are getting a better image quality. Um, but you pull out Netflix, you know, this this TV has Netflix built into it and it's got it's got that Netflix calibrated mode. So what I'm getting is you know exactly what it's supposed to look like, this Dolby Vision and everything. And it looks great, but at the same time, when it's a film, particularly, and it's in and you're trying you're being asked to invest in some kind of fiction, you've got too much information in the image, too much detail, and so your brain starts to see, oh, that's makeup, or oh, that set is made of fake wood. It looks too good. And so they should have introduced noise into the image to make it look shitter so that you can buy into the artifice more.

SPEAKER_01 32:10

Everything is it's either too dark or too clean. You know what I mean? It's it's it's uh they they've they've gotten it wrong along the lines. I watched something the other day and it was a night scene. And fuck me, it was the brightest night I'd ever seen. And it was perfect. Because your brain, you're watching a film. So your brain is told, uh, this is the evening. Cool, this is the evening and this is dark. But I can see exactly what they're doing, I can see everything they're picking up, and they're walking around as if it is dark. This is uh this reads as everything I need it to read. Whereas now you're like, what the fuck's going on? Is anything happening? Oh, someone's there. In a horror film, all of a sudden something jumps out of you in the dark, and you're like, Well, if it wasn't for the audio queue, I wouldn't know there was anything to be scared about. Like, yeah, and when it isn't doing that, uh it's too clean. Like everything looks immaculate, everyone looks too polished, everyone's like stunning chad mode. And it's just like what is going on? Like I watched The Constant Gardener the other day. Some of that was shot in 16 mil. And you're gonna tell me that doesn't look great. Like it looks like it looked exactly as it needed. I think that's another thing. It's looking exactly as it needs for the film. But people don't seem to realise that. Like things don't need to look Netflix, they need to look what's right for the story. So if you want to shoot it clean with no fucking you know, like boker, you're shooting telly, you're shooting a soap opera. You want it to look as real as possible. Go shoot it like that. Uh but if I'm not, if I'm watching a film, there's cinematic language that we that we've had a hundred years to watch films to know this is a film and this is how we're watching it. But everyone's so desperate to be gritty and real, and you're just like, uh But it isn't real.

SPEAKER_02 34:10

It's not real. Your brain knows it's not real, and your brain doesn't want your brain doesn't want to be convinced that it's real. That's the thing people don't forget. This is my disagreement with with James Cameron, who I hesitate to disagree with about anything technical, but I do think he's wrong when it comes to frame rate, because he's like, no, no, it's it's it's it's uh it's historical training that our uh we just think that we need to watch films in 24 frames a second, but actually, you know, you know, you watch my film in 48 or 60p um in in 4K, and you know, it's I just don't think that's correct when it comes to uh something that takes place on a fantasy planet or a you know fantasy world or whatever. Sports 100%. Sure. I would love to watch a sport, you know, uh the Super Bowl or whatever in 4K 60p 3D. Great. Perfect. That'd be that'd be awesome. Because I know it's real. Yeah. But if I'm watching Gandalf run around with some hobbits, you shoot that in 48 frames. Well, we know. We know what happened. It's it's the wrong format for that particular artifice. You know, we need to we need that few steps removed from the source that was captured to what our brain accepts for there to be true acceptance. Otherwise you get uncanny valley and the brain rejects it. 100%.

SPEAKER_01 35:35

And you know, he's not wrong. It is through, you know, it just so happened that the speed of cranking the film through the box was 24 frames, that that was the easiest sort of like mo like that's just that is how it happened. But we had Well, it it was a minimum.

SPEAKER_02 35:53

They they it it was 18, I think, to begin with, but that's a little too few frames. So they for um but yeah, however, I forget exactly how it all landed on 24, and some of it's to do with the the uh the Hertz rate of the power and all that shit. But in any case, it is a minimum, and it's a really, really solid minimum that our brains need for s especially again as I you know um like have to make this point land is that it's it's it's genre specific. It's like if you're gonna make fantasy, if you're gonna make sci-fi, something that is clearly not real, yeah, you need that you need the you need less information per second for the brain of the audience to be able to accept it and go, I'm watching a dream, I accept what I'm seeing. Yes, I'm going along with the artifice. Um and that's why old films still hold up. You watch Alien today, yeah. Fucking holds up.

SPEAKER_01 36:58

For sure. And and so there's they shot, what is it, day for night in Lawrence of Arabia? In the desert, there are shadows on a blue desert because it was day for night. You're gonna tell me that's unrealistic, that film. You're gonna tell me that that film, ah, you can tell it nope, you're gonna follow three and a half hours that film, just give me more.

unknown 37:19

Give me more.

SPEAKER_02 37:20

Yeah, I mean, we haven't got started yet on Lawrence of Arabia, but but we will. But yeah, no, I absolutely agree. And again, you you your brain knows you're watching a film, your brain knows it's fiction, and it's willing to indulge in it because it's been given a safety net of reduced information when you presenting it with something that is so close to reality, the brain, just on a biological level, has to make a choice. Is this real or is this not real? And it can see through it enough to go, not real, and it makes that decision and it breaks the illusion. But you don't, you don't, you know, you the whole point of it is it is an illusion.

SPEAKER_00 38:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:01

And you can't indulge in the illusion if you think it's real, like it you have to know that it's an illusion and sit back in your chair and go, it's okay, it's not a survival situation, but your brain doesn't know any different. Your brain is trying to help you survive.

SPEAKER_00 38:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:18

Yeah. Hence the uncanny valley, yeah. 100%.

SPEAKER_01 38:23

No, it's uh it is an interesting one. And it's I'm always baffled whenever I go to a friend's house and they haven't turned off motion smoothing. And I'm just like fucking hate it now. What the fuck are you doing? Yeah, watching something.

SPEAKER_02 38:35

I've calibrated friends' TVs. Well they know the room.

SPEAKER_01 38:39

I'm just like get rid of that. Well, yeah. Oh, yes, I know. Fucking idiots. Idiots. So actually, we haven't talked about your work at all. Do you want to talk about your work at all? Yeah, we can do that.

SPEAKER_02 38:53

I mean, it's uh it's uh difficult to talk about at times because it's like it exposes a lot as well. It's like, well, why ain't what's he doing now? Nothing.

SPEAKER_01 39:03

It feels like we are both in a bit of a funk about it right now.

SPEAKER_03 39:07

And I don't know if we want to like bring it up.

SPEAKER_02 39:09

Well, it's been a 20-year funk. So so no, look, I'm I'm more than happy to talk about it. Um because when else am I gonna talk about it? Sure. Yeah. And and I'll just uh you know, I'm self-deprecating, so I'm it's funny. It is funny, and it's it actually no, it's good to talk about it because there'll be someone who listens to this who's maybe 10 years younger than me, and they'll be like, oh okay, it's it's alright, you know.

SPEAKER_01 39:35

Um yeah, like, oh, there's gonna be fucking periods of nothing. Yeah, and it's like Yeah, yeah, 100%. There's gonna be more periods of nothing than there will be periods of something. Yeah. But the something will outweigh the nothing.

SPEAKER_00 39:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:48

Maybe. Well, I do believe the cream does rise to the top. I do believe that. But maybe I have to believe that.

SPEAKER_01 39:56

Because what else are we gonna believe? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because the other option is where I currently at is the acceptance of maybe I'm just not that good of a writer. Maybe I'm just not that good of a filmmaker. And it's like, you're a multi-award-winning filmmaker, like that's not the case. Like, if you were a bad filmmaker, you wouldn't have got this far. And it's like, yeah, but maybe I'm not. And it's like, well, maybe you need to chill out, Ted. Just like in do something else for 20 minutes and just come back to it.

SPEAKER_02 40:24

Nah, well welcome to the club, and you know, watch watch some of Manscassisi's earliest short films, or Ridley Scott's earliest boy boy in a bicycle. There's there's not much in that where you go, I can see that guy making alien. Like he he got better, you know, like everybody. They all get better and better. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 40:48

100% full of the shorts.

SPEAKER_02 40:50

Yeah, man. And there's a there's the one of the guy shaving, and and it's uh it's it's good, it's fine, but but it but it's not good fellas. You don't watch it and go, that guy's gonna make good fellas. No, it's Vanolan. We watch some of his his watch watch uh is it jitterbug? Uh you know, watch that and it's like, yeah, yeah, it's good, it's good, but you don't go, that guy's gonna make inception.

SPEAKER_01 41:12

So I mean I watch all of his films with the same level of disdain, so yeah. I watch Jetbug, I'm like, this motherfucker's gonna make fucking Inception one day. Jesus Christ.

SPEAKER_02 41:29

I yeah, I have I have some mixed feelings there about uh about him. I love enough I don't know him as a person, I don't care. You can only judge the film, but yeah, it's it's um he's such a master of making things that are effective, entertaining, um, and kind of hides in a way within that, like the flaws are really well hidden. So you've got to forgive that as well and go, well, he's just a great illusionist. Um yeah, I I don't know. I'm un I'm sort of undecided on on him because his canon is so it's been so long now, and it's like the early stuff is so good, and then there's a kind of tipping point for me where I kind of get off the boat a little bit. But I I'm like this with a lot of filmmakers where I watch their f I watch all their early stuff. And even bands, I'm like, nah, I can't after 1998, nah, that was it.

SPEAKER_00 42:31

That's when music stopped.

SPEAKER_02 42:33

Yeah, yeah. I know.

SPEAKER_01 42:35

I don't want to be like that, but I can't help it sometimes. I think there are certain filmmakers though that um to relate directly to something I've seen recently, Disclosure Day, Spielberg should stop. Ridley Scott should stop. Like he never will.

SPEAKER_02 42:54

Um But why do you think why do you want to actually make them stop? Like do you how committed to that are you? Zero to none.

SPEAKER_01 43:04

Yeah, it's just words. But I know what you mean. Like it's it's fluff. It's it's crazy. Come on.

SPEAKER_02 43:13

That's the title of the podcast. Still bird should stop.

SPEAKER_01 43:17

Really scope. Yeah, like uh I I couldn't care less if you know Ted not listening to me. Steelberg's not sat at home waiting for the next episode of this podcast being like, I wonder if Ted liked my last film. And don't worry, he is he is going to stop at some point. At some point. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, that's the thing. Like I think it's it's the closest I ever get to um that weird obsessive fan sort of behaviour. Like I don't care that Star Wars. I think there's more Star Wars content. There's more Star Wars materials that I don't like than I do like. After so long, I loved Star Wars. Up until probably about 25. I loved Star Wars. Now I wouldn't care if I'd actually get Star Trek because I think Star Wars is so little. Just now I thought Star Trek. I know a lot of people are like, oh, that ruined my childhood. The fact that they've made more sense hasn't changed that those ones still exist and that those ones still do the thing you want them to do. So my definitive statement of people quit directing. Well, I'll just keep watching Close Encounters, Outdoors, Jurassic Park, and love them. Like Minority Report. I'll keep loving that.

SPEAKER_02 45:10

And I I'm a bit like this with bands. Like I I can forgive anything that Metallica do because they've they made Rise of Lightning, Master of Puppets, and Justice for All.

unknown 45:19

Right.

SPEAKER_02 45:20

They've done it. Even by that stage, they've done enough, and there's still great stuff after that too. So it's fine. If they put out a country album today where there's no distortion, no guitar solos, and James doesn't even sing, I can forgive that because they've done enough. And I sort of feel like that with I still feel like that with Nolan, I feel like that with Spielberg. You've done enough. You've made a few great, genuinely great films.

SPEAKER_01 45:48

So Foo Fighters are one Foo Fighters, they're the ones for me where like I always root for the next album. I'm always like, it's gonna be so fucking good. And then I listen to the next album and I'm like, well, I still got colour in the shape. I met Dave Girl by Antonio. Oh what you saw you mean Taylor.

SPEAKER_02 46:15

Uh I didn't know who I was meeting. I was in LA um with uh my mate from Black Magic. We were I was working for them at the time and we went to this film, small film production company that we were trying to get them to start using the cameras. This is like 2013, I think. And um that big ob not oblong a bit, it was like it was the uh yeah, exactly the original cinema camera and the pocket cinema cameras and things like that, and just keep trying to get them to use more of our stuff and use Da Vinci more and that kind of thing. Anyway, so the guy we had a contact that we were meeting, and we met him and and we're talking about stuff in the in the foyer of the production company, and um, and then there was just this guy sitting on the sofa with l who had long hair, and he was like, Um, oh can he didn't know where we were from, who we were from, but he knew we were from a tech company of some kind. He was like, Can I can you guys get me a PlayStation? And we and then I turned and I was like, Yeah, yeah, and um I didn't know who he was, and my mate was like, I saw his face, and just from his face, I was like, oh no, this must be something. And then I kind of clocked him eventually, and I was like, Shh, I do know that face. Uh, because I'm I'm not a Foo Fighters guy, but I was a Nirvana guy. And uh and I and then I remember you know there was some commotion, and then he kind of whispered to me, That's fucking Dave Kroll. And I was like, Oh yeah, yeah, this too. And he was really nice, and then we went to their drummer from Nirvana? Yeah, I know I know there were some faux pas. I was like, Don't say that, don't say that. But um, then we went to their studio and saw them their rehearsal space and everything, and I was the whole time I was like, fuck, I wish I was a fan. This is amazing. You know, and I got to take guitar picks and I got to see all this shit behind the curtain that oh my god, if only I was into them, I would appreciate.

SPEAKER_01 48:12

Yeah. That's uh yeah, that's dope. I'd love to like a friend of mine kind of insinuated that uh he won't ever consider I've ever made it until Dave Grill does the soundtrack to one of my films. And I was like, thanks. Like win every fucking award under the sun. If Dave ain't done your soundtrack, I'm not impressed. And it's like okay. He doesn't tend to do soundtracks. He did a film called Touch in the 90s, and I believe it was after Nirvana. And I think it might have been like before the first out like Food Fighters album came out, or it was just after. But he's credited as David Grohl. Like that's amazing. I did not know that. And it's it's a weird soundtrack. Yeah, so he couldn't rate it. Have I got it? No, I think I might have sold it. Which is the ultimate sign of how much I dislike a film if I would sell it. I'd sooner get one pound for it than keep it on my shelf. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:21

No, that space is worth more than a pound. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 49:27

That's a primary stay on there. But um but yeah. Um sounds good. Let's uh let's actually get into it. Um so I'm picking up an accent. I'm guessing you weren't born in the UK.

SPEAKER_02 49:47

No. I was born in Australia, um from Melbourne. Which I like to call the Paris of Australia, but then it gets mocked and laughed at. As in Paris, Texas, not Paris, France. That's what I mean, but no one gets the joke. I mean, yeah, like I kind of did split my growing up over Melbourne and Sydney, though. So I did high school in Sydney, I love Sydney, I love Melbourne. Um but uh but got out of there 10, 11 years ago to come here to mainly to chase love. Um and it worked, we're married, we have a child. But uh but also I was like I was working for Black Magic, enjoying the job a lot and getting a lot of really great like the Dave Grohl experience, you know, little things like that, getting to see behind the curtain, getting to learn about how the technology is actually made, how cameras are made, how video works, um, how post-production works. So just learnt an absolute shit ton of stuff. And also being given responsibility, which was really good for the first time. But it was such an intense job that I wasn't getting to do a lot of filmmaking, and so um that's one of the reasons I came here, aside from chasing love, because I thought, well, if I move there for my wife, then I know London has big post-production visual effects kind of um, you know, it's a big a big town for that. Yeah. And it has somewhat of a film industry, unlike Australia, unfortunately. Like it's just too small, Australia, to have what I would consider an industry. It's it's got a it's got something, but it's it has a carry department, sure. It's very small, and um yeah, and obviously there's just not a lot of money to go around and all that sort of thing. So so it just made sense for me to come here. Um but yeah, I mean, then spent a really good couple of years working in post in London, in TV and working, like just really seeing how stuff gets made, decisions that are made to make stuff, yeah. And then what what's what's willing to be spent, you know, what's where where money is willing to be spent or not, um, and the incredible compressed time frame that you work in to get especially TV made. You know, it was an incredible training ground where I was like, I have the tech sort of background, I knew how things are set up and why things go wrong, oh that's the wrong frame rate, that's why, and stuff like that. But but I didn't really have any experience in post, so that was really I if I to do it properly, I would have done it the other way around. I would have worked in post first, then for black magic, if I actually knew what I was talking about. But anyway, it didn't work out that way. And then after about three years of working in post, um got uh got to work for Foundry as a video editor and um mostly just making marketing videos, but also again just learning bits and pieces about visual effects, which I have to admit I'm really not interested in. Um I should have I should have been more interested, but I've I can't master everything. And I know what I am interested in and what I'm not, and you know, I edit videos, but I'm not an editor. Uh I'm a writer and a director. That's what I'm best at, and that's what I've spent the last 10 years, even though I've been working in the industry, I've still just focused on that. Like I don't want I didn't want to learn how to be a compositor. Um, and I'm fucking glad I didn't, because now that's all who knows what's happening with visual effects these days. So I didn't want to invest that time, I wanted to invest that time in getting better at writing feature films. Because at the end of the day, that's your that's like your property portfolio. It's like having real estate. It's like you so I guess to answer your question from from earlier, like fucking write it. You know, it is worth having because it's a a feature film in the drawer is still worth something, even though it may not be getting made. Yes, it's another thing that it's another piece of property, it's a huge investment of time and energy, but it will pay off because just having done it, it will pay off in the same way that you if you go to the gym for a year, that'll pay off. So it's you know, you're you're you're doing you're being in the gym for your screenwriting and your storytelling capacity. You can't write a feature film from start to finish, even if it takes you four years and learn nothing or not get better, you will. So I knew that. So yeah, that's what I put my time into.

SPEAKER_01 54:45

I, from uh writer's perspective on this, have started to think, okay, so if uh if the feature isn't going to get made, right? And that's not a comment uh on my work, that's just a comment on the industry. It's not gonna get made. Yeah. Do I convert that story into a more um do I convert it into a novel essentially? Or a net book. But a novel is the one I'm thinking of at the moment. Because I could at least self-publish and drum up a an audience that way. Do you think that's uh do you think that's worth doing? Or do you think it's worth doing it as a script first? I think certain stories have certain uh output. Like I have some grip, which is I they're comic scripts, they're not I wouldn't even entertain the idea of trying to make them into a film because I just don't think they'd work.

SPEAKER_00 55:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:32

Whereas I I'm so early into this idea I've got that I'm like if I think about this too much, it's gonna be a film. But if I think about it as a novel, I could write it as a novel.

SPEAKER_02 55:45

Yeah, it's hard because they used to say if you want to sell a screenplay, write a novel. Um and today there's now I've seen an agency that's been created that actually is flipping that script a little bit, pardon the pun, uh, where they're taking screenplays that haven't been made and turn and saying to that writer, turn this into a novel, and then we have two properties that we can sell, um and you still get the book rights and all that sort of thing. So it's actually really good for that writer to do that. But you know, writing a novel, it's no small investment of time. Oh, it's hard.

SPEAKER_01 56:22

It's hard.

SPEAKER_02 56:24

Yeah, I I wouldn't. I haven't since I was very, very young, and I only did it once, and then I was like, that's I think.

SPEAKER_01 56:31

This is why I'm this is why I'm hesitant to do it as a novel. Because one, I'm not a novelist, I'm not a I'm not a writer in that way, I'm a script writer. And even then I would say I am a big pictures guy, and I work best with having someone next to me to bounce off the ideas while they're typing, and then we come up with the idea, and then I'll happily be like, Right, you gave up 51%, it's your story.

SPEAKER_02 56:56

Like well, in that case, I would say don't don't do it because it's not your if it's not your comfort zone, what you could end up doing is spending three years writing a novel that still doesn't get anywhere, or yeah, and you hate or whatever, and it's it's not taking advantage of what your strengths are. So I would stick to your strengths. Um and I would push the comic book stuff more because you know people in that world, and and so that's something that could actually be realized. Um yeah, like if you did that and then you got your mate to do the graphics, and and then you could put some of it on Instagram or something like that to generate some interest. I can see that more being the kind of project that actually does land somewhere out there, and then they go, I'd love to see a feature, uh some movie about this. I see it as a movie, and you go, Well, funny you say that, because I've got the screenplay right here.

SPEAKER_01 57:49

And they're like, Shut up, we're gonna get our own people and we're gonna be a director. It's like, but I'm a director, no, you're not, you're a comic book writer. I'm like, no.

SPEAKER_02 57:58

Well, I've been finding those kind of narratives for 25 years, and you know, I I've got a friend, a really, really good friend, he's super talented, who's just watched his short film be destroyed by an incompetent director. And the reason that happened is because my friend, the writer, hasn't insisted and pushed as no, no, no, I'm a director. And this is a problem in our industry. I fucking hate it. I don't understand why people don't respect writers, because without a screenplay, you've got nothing.

SPEAKER_00 58:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 58:36

And it's the thing people spend the list the least amount of money on. It's the thing that people don't seem to value. Um, but without it, what have you got? What are you gonna go shoot?

SPEAKER_01 58:46

So um pictures that have no direction, like that's nonsense. I insist on having the writer on the set. So absolutely, absolutely. Why wouldn't you? Yeah. I know a lot of people are like, no, I don't want the di the the writer there, he's gonna be sticking his oar in. I'm like, he's probably gonna keep us true to the story.

SPEAKER_00 59:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:07

He's not gonna let us deviate too far.

SPEAKER_00 59:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:09

And then also, if we've done something or said something, I want the writer to get us out of a hole that they will know the answer to because it's their their story. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 59:20

And that that comment shows such little faith in that writer.

SPEAKER_00 59:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 59:25

Sticking their ore in, what are you talking about? Like, you know, you're so afraid of what you have brought to it as a director that they're gonna challenge that, jeopardizing. Right. No. Um, and so watching my friend go through this horrific experience where he wasn't he he wasn't he was barely allowed on set. He turned up on the there was money put into this short, and it had a someone in it who's a name and all of that, and so there was some quite significant money put into this, but the director didn't understand his script, and I'm I really mean that. They did not understand what he had intended, and they rewrote it and they changed they just changed the nature of it. They made a different film out of his script, but it was a kind of hybrid, so it's sort of neither here nor there now, and then but that's the one they went with because that person was the director, so that's what they they land on the authority there of the director, and he has to go through the the suffering of having to be on set watching his work being completely destroyed, and it's and so I've been sort of talking to him about it since then and just been like, dude, the next time just you gotta stop calling yourself a writer, just stay here, just say you're a director now. Make one thing in your backyard that's 30 seconds long, that's a film, and you go, and now you've done it, you've you're a director now, and and so now you can just say that, and people people will stop arguing with you, and uh it shouldn't be that way, but it is, and so I've I kind of came to that realization about 10 years ago, and I've I've stopped sort of saying much about the writing, and now I just say, Yeah, I'm a filmmaker or a director, and then it's like yeah, yeah, I write too, but I write so that I can direct. That that's why I do it. It's not hire me, please, as a writer, so you can take my work and fuck it up.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:18

No, that's another thing as well. I will say, like, oh, I'm a filmmaker and I write some things, but if they were to say, like, oh, well, can we hire you as a writer, I'd be like, No. Yeah. Like, I write, exactly, but I would not accept a writer's job.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:34

No, no, no. And so the same thing with your with your comic story, if it was a if it was a co uh like a graphic novel or something that existed in that form, um, you would still just want to be attached as the creator and director or something, but something involves the word director. I've and and maybe make a short film out of it in some way, or animation or something, so that at least you can you've got a credit that says I directed that, so that yeah, if anybody came along and said, We want to make this, you're like, Great, let's talk. Let's talk. I'm I'm the director of this. And what do you want to do? Yeah. There's something really we're all afraid to say the word no, and uh there's incredible power in saying, um no, uh, here's what we're gonna do. And risking the thing never happening because a lot of people who are insecure on the other side of that discussion, they want to push the authority argument and say, Well, I'm doing you a favor, I'm Mr. Hollywood, and it's like, okay. Alright, you can think that, but I'm still the guy who made who created this, and uh you want it. So I'm directing something, yeah. Or it's not happening. I can live with that, and I've been in those conversations where I'm and I've had to say that. I've had to say, look, you don't realize that I would rather this never gets made ever, than it get destroyed and ruined by someone else. I'm making it, and that's fine if you don't want to do that, if you don't want to trust me with that, totally fine. But it's not going anywhere. And it works. People go, well, at least he's got commitment, at least he's got conviction and and he's committed to this, to this, he's got a vision, you know, that's what they look for. You know, so no one watched Kane Parsons' material and went, let's get a different director in. No. They were like, No, that's his vision. And kudos to them for trusting him. And it paid off. It's a well-directed film. So um Yeah, I think people have got to stop saying yes to things that they're not comfortable with and trusting that the material is good, and the reason why that person wants to make it is because it's good. And so they're not gonna risk well, if they're willing to risk walking away, then you know. You know where you stand. They weren't the right person.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:07

It was never gonna get made the right way. If they walk away from it, it was never gonna get made the right way.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:13

No, I I think if you could ask my friend that question now, would you rather the situation you have now where this film has been completely distorted and changed and ruined, or and take all that back in time and actually risk going to another different producer? He'd probably say I'd take it to a different producer, you know. Oh there was a reason I wrote it, there's a reason I wanted it to be in a certain way, and that's what I had to say. And and they took his voice away. So I it's the same kind of thing I say to actors, like you should you should become writers. Write the part that you're not getting, because especially women, I just think they get shit roles. Um they just don't get cast in in in uh in good roles. So write the role that you want to play. Become a writer.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:10

100%. It does baffle my mind that I know a writer creates characters and all that kind of stuff, but there are certain elements that wherever you hear like it's a room full of writers writing for female characters and you're just like, but you're all guys. And it's like, well, blokes can't write for women, women can't write for blokes. It's like, oh they 100% can. But um get some women in there. Like I don't know how to write for someone who's a sports fan. So I'd get someone who knew about sports in there. Like, what do you want about? Get no, it's just kind of information. Like, go go fucking look it up, do research. All of this came on from IRC where you're from. Sorry, yeah, we got into that. It's gonna be a long one.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:02

So let's just let's just get that that first question out of the way. Um what was the first film you saw at the cinema?

SPEAKER_02 1:06:12

Great. Yeah, let's get into that. Well, it's a short answer because I don't have much memory of it, but um it would I these are great questions, by the way. Um yeah, first film I saw at the cinema would have would have been, from my memory anyway, uh the never ending story. Oh no. Um so I don't know if we saw it if we saw it when it came out, I would have been three. So I reckon back in those days, films played for a very long time in cinema, six months, eight months, the film was still there. So I probably saw it on us four, maybe five. Um had a later release? Yeah, probably eighty five, eighty six is probably when it was. I don't know, but I do remember seeing it on the big screen. Profound. Yeah. Were you a a fan of the Banda Tree? I can't remember the genre that they were.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:12

Um black metal. I think they I think they were more metal. Yeah. But like that 2000s metal. I don't know. I might be showing my own ignorance here.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:21

I am the right type of music.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:24

Yeah, yeah, no, I'm this is where I'm such an old man. So by the year 2000, there wasn't much in the way of metal that was coming out that was new that I really got into. I was still stuck in the eighties and nineties.

unknown 1:07:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:37

And I kind of still am. Uh I pretty much only listen to uh New York punk from the eighties and nineties. Yeah, right, yeah. It's yeah, and it's only things like Aimland Sniffers that I'm like, oh, they sound pretty decent there and they're new, and I'm like, oh yeah, cool, I'll tell I'll listen to them. But otherwise, like you'll hear me fucking blasting the germs and you know adolescence. It's like I just don't, I don't, I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:05

It's a very specific scene that I had friends who were really into hardcore uh in high school and they were they were right into that stuff. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:11

I fucking love hardcore. Yeah. I I I saw uh have you ever heard of the band Life of Agony? Of course. Yeah, no, that's that that album is well that first album is incredible, and I still pull it out. River Runs Red. Yeah it's great. I went to see them, was it last year? Because it was the 30th anniversary of River Runs Red, and they just played River Runs Red start to finish and a medley of their other hits at the end. And I was just like, this is a fucking sick gig.

unknown 1:08:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:39

No, it's a masterpiece, that album. And I yeah, I don't know, people bands don't do this much anymore that I know of, but it's such a 90s kind of uh trademark of having the in-between tracks where it was just audio of like stuff happening and telling a story, and that album does a really good job of it. And you never hear the protagonist speak, it's just the breathing and other people yelling at him, you know, good!

SPEAKER_01 1:09:08

Miserable but wonderful, yeah. Yeah, so yeah. Oh nice. I'm pleased there's a life of agony fan here.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:15

Um but yeah, uh never any story had uh had a pretty profound uh effect. Great fantasy film, great coming of age story.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:23

Just yeah, it's it's it does sound like fantasy is the thing that sort of gripped you from uh a young age because if if you were that and then you your first feature you wrote was a fantasy story, and you're a big oblivion Skyfool guy, Skyfool, Skyrim guy, just loves James Bond. Um, you know, it's it's like so that would have been your was that the start of for you to watch, you know, Excalibur and big time, all the others, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:50

Yeah, because it was a good time for it, you know, in the early 80s, yeah, early all of the 80s actually was such a great time for fantasy. You had Jim Henson stuff all the time, you had you know labyrinths and films like that, and yeah, uh and obviously Star Wars, you know, it was it was so embedded in the culture, like there was just always like a Jeb of the Hutt figurine somewhere in the house or something like that, and it was so fantasy, and because I think Star Wars is not a sci-fi film, it's a fantasy film, it just happens to be set in space. But the tr the sort of like I I don't like the word tropes, but the the embedded myth is a fantasy myth, not a uh science fiction concept. So yeah, fantasy was huge, and as a child, like you're still you're still living in half in a fantasy world anyway. Like I I know this from my daughter, like you know, if I'm reading a bedtime story to her, not so much now uh as age four, but age two and three, you read a bedtime story to her, and she starts talking to the characters on the page. She's there, she's there, yeah, yeah, yeah. She's like, Gruffalo, Gruffalo, wh why are you doing that? And then she's expecting an answer. And so then I'm giving her an answer with the Gruffalo voice, and she knows on some level it's dad, but on the other level she's getting what she needs. So you're still this is why children are great actors, because when you ask them to imagine something, it sort of almost becomes real for them. So fantasy is great for children.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:24

Nice, nice. It was a it was a genre that just did not grab me as a kid.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:31

Like I It was the gangster films for you, wasn't it? It was the gangster films. I just loved it. Lahaine was just the only thing I'd ever watch as a kid. I don't know what it was. Like fantasy never like fantasy and cowboys were not two things that like I I was into as a as a as a young boy. So like only recently have I got like I'd say last year I discovered in Eastwood films. Oh this this Clint seems like a a good fellow. And then I went and I watched I watched all of his films, literally. All of them. Bringing the medical counties uh pretty damn awesome. Nice underrated film. I was about to say it's a nice one that that's the one you've chosen because it's not one that gets spoken about as well. No, and then I even started watching old episodes of Rawhide. Yep. I went I went back and I was like, this man has been going since the 50s. Like he's been churning out quality stuff for a while. Yeah. Yeah. Um but again, fantasy wasn't something that I ever like got into. But it is always interesting when a lot of the people that I get on with, you know, I'd like to say I get on with you. Like a lot of the things that you didn't have to orderly say anything, but for the listener, he uh grinned and nodded and you know, shaking fists and I'm trying to keep your audio clean. Oh, cheers, cheers, cheers, cheers, cheers. Like a lot of the people that you know I do get on with fancy is a big deal in their life. And I keep thinking, like, oh, I should go back and I should give them all a go again. Like I think the Lord of the Rings films are are fine. And that's not a shit take on them. Like they're perfectly fine. I'll happily watch them. I don't care about them. Yeah, I'm not whatever. But the fact that like some of my closest friends, you know, they've got like full body tattoos. They love Lord of the Rings. I'm just like, oh, it's alright. And I'm like, I should probably give it another go, and I should probably give it a lot of fantasy a go. So it's interesting.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:45

No, no, I think you're right. I mean, not not because I agree with you about Lord of the Rings necessarily, it's just that one of my best friends is the same, like he just can't really go with fantasy, like it's just not his thing, you know?

SPEAKER_01 1:14:00

And uh I used to say probably not gonna change I don't like that time period. And a guy I used to know would be like, What time period do you mean? I'm like, you know what I mean. That meant shit. And he's like, It's not a time period. And I'm like, it's I don't care for that.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:14

Yeah. But do you like swords and sandals epics though? Would you like would you like Ben Hur?

SPEAKER_01 1:14:20

Uh no. Even though like I would say in a historical sense, like Romans and Egyptians and Greeks, like in a in a history sense, ancient history sense, I love it. Like I was annoyed that I had to learn the Tudors at school because I would rather learn about Egyptology. Like you know what I mean? Like so whenever it's sword and sorcery stu uh sword and sandal stuff, I'm always a bit like, well, this should rev my engine.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:52

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:53

But it doesn't he. And then I'm like, gimme some grubby sci-fi, and I'm all there for it.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:00

Yeah. No, it's gotta just be a taste thing. Um which is fine, man. You know, we this is the thing that we maybe forget today is that films aren't made for every single human on the planet. No, and they can't be. So yeah, there's there's an audience out there, but it's a it's a wedge. It is, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:26

Um so as a kid of a certain age, yeah. VHS was available to you. What film did you watch over and over again as a kid?

SPEAKER_02 1:15:36

Yeah, I loved answering this question. So there's the obvious stuff like Star Wars and Temple of Doom and Goonies and stuff. But I'm gonna I'm gonna pull out the Australian card because it is true we did watch Crocodile Dundee a lot.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:54

Nice.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:55

It is true, and it and it is a great film. It's really fun and and it's got heart. I haven't seen it for about 30 years, but I saw it a lot as a as a kid. My brother even won like a competition, some radio competition where he won like the leather jacket. And um sick. And because he was like nine, it was it was a you know, it was obviously way too big for him. So so they agreed to sell it, you know. My parents and him agreed, I'll we don't I don't need this for 20 years, so maybe I'll just sell it. Um but uh but Crocodile Dundee's yeah, really good. I'm really proud of that film. I like it a lot.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:40

I think it is like as a kid, it is like your first introduction to Australia. If you're from not from Australia, like you might get neighbours, you might get home and away, you might be aware of those, but Crocodile Dundee is definitely something that you like you watched as a kid. That's not a knife, you know? Yeah, yeah. Like I'm I'm fully aware of all of those sort of you know I feel like it's it's Crocodile Dundee and then it's the guy who's in Cocktail and FX.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:14

Oh yeah, um Brian Brown.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:16

Brian Brown.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:16

He's right.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:18

I think they're the first, like two Australians. Yeah that Brits of our age were told, like, by the way, this is Australian, and it's like, oh yeah, yeah. And like Yeah, so Crocodile Dundee is a good oh we watched it a lot as a kid. Have you heard the recent controversy about it? Uh no. Don't worry. Um they re-released it. They re-released it um on 4K. CGI Crocodile. AI Crocodile, please. It's 2026. Yeah, sorry, yeah. No, there's a the bit where um he uh touches the crotch of a transgender person. And is and it's told and it's meant to be uh an embarrassing calling them out as being trans. Right. And they've cut that scene. Okay. I don't even remember the gag. Honestly, I don't remember the gag, but I also don't agree that they should have cut it because it's a historical film. They should cut the whole of Breakfast Intimidities then. Genuinely. Like burn the film then if he builds out. That's not right. But that is the thing. It's like I don't I think it's a man from Australian Outback goes to New York City.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:44

That's the joke, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 1:18:45

He's a fish out of water, he has no fucking idea what he's doing. He's no idea, right? Yeah. And yes, the joke is at her expense, ultimately.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:54

But I also think that the learning curve that you'd get from it is still applicable.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:00

So I'm Well, I don't remember the character, because is the character actually genuinely trying to pass as female, or is it uh more like a cross-dressing, like uh transvestite type situation where it's like they I believe it's not got the same level of like I believe she is selling herself as a woman.

unknown 1:19:29

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:29

When I say selling herself, I don't mean like in a sex worker way. Oh mean and like she's selling herself as like, hey, do you want to come home with me, baby? I am a woman.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:38

Oh, right, right. And you usually don't even remember this. Well honestly. This is the thing, right? What you think is important as a child, you know, it you see things differently. You don't know, you're not an adult, you don't see all the context and the political implications of things. You just go sort of go along with it. You know, what I remember is Big Knife. Big knife, the crocodile scaring the shit out of me, and it's a big great jump scare. And also the character of him where he's like, um he gets his mate, Wally, he's like, What time what time is it? He's like, Oh, it's 2.30. Okay, yeah, cool. And then he he goes, Oh, it's uh 2.30, and he's trying to impress her. He's like, and she's like, How do you know? He's like, Oh, I can tell by the sun, you know. And it's just a really great character comedy moment where it just makes you like him because he's he's one of wants to impress the pretty American who's come over.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:38

Yeah. And and and and it's things like him walking on the like, doesn't he walk on a ledge or at some point? And like there's kind of just like a an element of a fearlessness.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:49

There's a guy trying to commit suicide, I think, is like a finance guy who's like, I I can't do it, I think I need to and that's my memory.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:58

And it's just like I think the what I took away from that film was definitely the sense of like being sure of who you are. Yeah. Being a certain like and it doesn't matter if you're good guy, bad guy, whatever, just having a personal faith in yourself and being like, No, no, no, I know what I'm about. You know? I'm not afraid if you're gonna threaten me because like I know I've got it in my arsenal, whether it's a big knife or a way to get out of it. I've I've got confidence in myself. I think he shows that there's a confidence, and as a kid I remember thinking that. I remember thinking, like, oh, he's a very cool, confident guy. Like, I want to be like that. I want to be a cool, confident guy.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:36

And you know, it's a good goal. Yeah. Also a boat. Is it like a a a yacht? No, it's a it's a sailboat, isn't it? Like in Manhattan at the end. I remember that being. Like doesn't he have the boat that he finally got it? No, you're thinking of um Romance and the Stone. Romance in the Stone. Thinking of Romance and the Stone. But I see why you are thinking of romance in the Stone.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:03

We need something like that.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:05

We need more Romance in the Stone. I do not understand why we don't have more of those. I do love Romancing the Stone. Oh mate, it's so good. It's such a good thing. But I love Michael Douglas. I'll watch him in just about anything. Oh my god. I'm pleased there's someone uh the amount of people throw a shade on that man for no reason. Like he's gold. No, he's great. Black rain. He's in black rain. We could start there, we could start anywhere. He he's awesome. The fact that he was a stock car driver and he wanted to just be a stock car driver, and they were like, no, you've got to go do something. So he's like, fine, I'll go produce my buddy's movie. Yeah. And that was fucking one floor of the cookies' nest, wins in one Oscar. And it's like, what the shit? Like, get out of here.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:48

Also, to have the humility to not cast himself, because he was uh going to play that role. Right? Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:55

He knew it no, no, fucking action Jack Nicholson, he's gonna do it better than me. Yep. And hilarious that we all root for a fucking paedophile in that film, but sure. Do we?

SPEAKER_02 1:23:08

I don't remember.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:09

Fuck. The reason he's in prison is because come on. She looked she looked 15 to me. I'm not gonna say anything. And say, what do you mean she looked 15 to you, Jack? 15's not my actual age.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:24

Well, if you want to talk about rooting for pedophiles, I love how this where this kid is. We've done trans, now let's do pedophilia. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you know, what other topics can we hit? Speaking of rooting for pedophedophiles, have you seen Happiness, the Todd Salons film? No, it's on my list. Put it at the top, because um that film would never get made today, but it's it's awesome, and there is a pedophile character in it, and you do root for him in in in and you find yourself going, I can't believe I'm feeling empathy for this guy.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:03

Well, Indiana Jones. Indiana Jones is a pedophile. Indiana Jones is a pedophile. I'll keep saying it till everyone fucking hears. Oh yeah, I was a child. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Yep. And there's archive footage of George and Stephen discussing it, and I think George Lucas wanted her to be like 13. And Steve was like, That hasn't age well. Yeah, he was like, I don't want her to be that young. Let's say 15. Yep. And it's like, oh yeah. 15's not okay. Fifteen. But done. You're gonna turn down Harrison Ford in his prime? No, you're not. Times were different. Times were different. Um well, I feel like talking about pedophiles, uh, what was the first uh well, I'm gonna say R18X. Yeah. What was it in Australia? Yeah, it was R.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:06

It was R18 plus and um yeah. So yeah, I remember very some of my fondest memories uh was going to the video store and wandering around. I still if you if someone could bottle that smell of VHS tapes and popcorn and game consoles, like the you know, Street Fighter 2 and stuff like that in Mortal Kombat. Or get that smell, put it in a bottle. I would wear that as perfume. I love that smell. Um, but anyway, and movie posters too, like they had great posters. And you could get them, you could just grab one, you know. They'd have them in like yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:42

There was the guy that had like the small one in the petrol station in our village when I was growing up. Yeah, uh, every Saturday I'd go in and say, Can I have last week's posters? Yeah, he'd be like, Yep, cool. So I would just get rolls of posters every week, and I would just wallpaper my walls with them.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:01

That's what we did, yeah. I had Terminator 2, you know, it was ah fucking wish I still had that. But anyway, um, so one of my favourite things to do was to go into the horror or cult section or or the action section and wander through and you know, because obviously again, no internet, nowhere to check things or know who's who or what. You just look at a VHS tape, you look at the cover, and you go, that looks cool. That looks like a scary movie. And um, but then of course, like the R. And the R looks because it's in a diamond, it just looks so severe and like you shouldn't be watching this.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:35

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:36

And um, so but yeah, I I it's a tough one. I had to actually seek outside help with this with this question because I went to my brother who's three years older, and I was like, which do you think it was? Because we used to have a mate who get like whose dad would get the video and then he'd copy it. He copied everything, and uh and so we got to see a lot of stuff that we shouldn't have, and um and so yeah, like Jaws isn't R-rated, but I I got to see that very young because of that, you know. But I think the answer to this question is Robocop. Um I reckon that was the first R-rated film I I I saw because I was pretty young, and but I I think in that mix would be um Blood Sport and Kickboxer, like those two I think both R-rated. Right. And um, but I'm gonna give it to Robocop because it had a a deeper impression on me. And it's it's a great R-rated film.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:36

It is a great R-rated film, you know, like there's a lot of those films from that time period where like an R rated or an 18 rated film now, do they exist? I don't know. And if they do they it's just because they're gory, you know? Yeah. Whereas Robocop, it really felt like it really feels Like a fuck you to the audience. In the most like uh like that isn't uh that isn't an enjoyable like it's obviously you're gonna enjoy it, but it's like the whole world is fucking miserable. You know what I mean? And there's gonna be language, there's gonna be themes, there's gonna be violence, whatever you think uh of like a good police nah, fuck you, we're having it like this. I mean Verhoven, it had to be Verhoeven who made it. Yeah. But like there's there's so many things about it that make it such a solid, like 18-rated film.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:30

It's incredible. I mean, which which scene do you want to pick? Do you want to pick the guy getting run over who turns into Toxic Avenger? Or uh like it's and even like I love I'm so glad I got exposed to the satirical stuff as a kid, like that it went in my brain and all that shit about like the the fake commercials that they made and it's just so awesome. You know, nuke 'em, nuke them before they get you. Like all that those those and I buy them for a dollar, you know. It's it's I still say that. I mean, it's so quotable, like it's great. Um, yeah, that would have been the first. And the scene of Ed 209 pumping this guy full of lead, and it just goes on and on until he's just eviscerated. And it's hilarious.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:23

But not to a seven or eight-year-old. You're kind of watching it going, Jesus, I'm scared of that robot, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:29

Just to get that heart palpitations, because it's like, I shouldn't be watching this. Uh that that was the excitement of it. That was the excitement. And I'm I'm I gut I'm gutted that I don't get that anymore. No, you're right, you know, ratings don't really mean anything anymore, do they? The closest I get to I shouldn't be watching this is when Kirsty says, Don't watch that without me, I'd like to watch it, and I still watch it.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:51

And then you watch it again, you pretend, oh no!

SPEAKER_01 1:29:54

It is the killer, it's so scary. And then like you jump the gun and you're like, oh no! Oh wait, no, wait, it's there it is. I did that with uh Witchmaster. Oh right, yeah. I like I forgot because he said I'd like to watch the Witchmaster first. Oh, you fucked it. So I fucked it. I'd got through four of them. And I was sat here after and I was just sat here watching it, and she was like, Were you watching? I was like, Wishmaster, fourth one, nearly done them all. She was like, I what? I asked you years ago. I was like, years ago, come on.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:27

Like, where are we going here? There's got to be a statute of limitations on that though, where it's like, no, no, no, no, no. Remember the clause? Clause three in our contract says, if three years pass, I can go on without you.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:39

That's that. The way we now do it is if it's a physical film that she wants to watch, it goes downstairs into her cupboard. Like, so that's that. And then if it's on Plex, it's uh a special watch list, which is like 30 films. So if it's not in those two things, it's a fair game. If you said I wouldn't I would have liked to have watched Delicatessen, and I'd be like, well, you can enjoy it on your fucking own. Tough love, babe. It's tough love. And then I cook a dinner, clean the house, uh make sure that she's all comfortable in the cozy. Absolutely. So with uh Robocop being the first 18, what was the first film you watched that you felt was grown up?

SPEAKER_02 1:31:32

Yeah, again, good question. And it made me think differently in that because I I don't know, like yes, Robocop is grown up, but it didn't, it was still it didn't feel like a grown-up type movie. So I reckon the first one where I really noticed that was probably my own private Idaho. Um came out in '91, and I probably saw that in about ninety two or three. It hadn't been out for long. How old were you? Uh I was about 12. And um I loved it. I loved it because it was a it was a new different type of film for me, you know, growing up on Commando and Predator and stuff. Um to see. Not that I did that's doing myself a disservice. I did watch other stuff, but it but it was just I wouldn't have watched my own private IDO, but I I I really enjoyed it because it's a totally different pace. It's the first kind of art house film I probably ever saw. Um and it's just it's it's really opened my eyes to like a whole new world of what cinema can do and what it is, and yeah, and I probably felt a little bit grown up watching it as well.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:42

Yeah, I mean it's definitely it's up there with you know um like drugstore cowboy and I mean is that Gus Van Sant as well? Like it's just those it's films where you're very much like oh, this themes-wise does not uh it does not want you uh to be too young, but because you just won't get it. Yeah, like it's not because it's uh the themes that they're presenting. I mean, I know Pro Idaho has its own has some themes that a child wouldn't want to be exposed to, but it is still sort of like you won't get it until you're a bit older. And then you'll start to understand it. And uh a friend recently suggested uh Is it The Living End the George uh George Aki film? I don't know. That's good. I don't know it. It's uh I've probably butchered everything that I've just said, but it's good. Um and um it's a very similar thing. It's a two guys on a road trip uh with a bit of a when I say a road trip in that sort of uh hedonistic road trip kind of way.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:54

And um it's it has that same feeling where it's like there are themes in this which just a child shouldn't watch, but you do you should watch. Like a 14-year-old or 15-year-old, it's like you should be watching this right now. Like Yeah, why not? Because it's uh but it's a I think it's uh there's certain there's certain things that you need to learn which uh you're not gonna get taught unless you know these people. And if you're fortunate enough, you don't know these people. So you need to know that it's like, oh, you can be a male giggle in the city to buy drugs. Oh okay. I don't know if that's a good thing. It's like, well, depends how you spin it in your brain.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:41

Like Yeah, yeah, I know. And you're not gonna get everything. That's the thing. I was no way I got everything, but I definitely noticed that it was a different type of film to what I was used to, and that the story was told differently with different types of visuals, the different timing. And I think what attracted me to it in the first place was I already loved, you know, uh Point Break and Bill and Ted. So Keanu Reeves, oh okay, I'll watch that. And River Phoenix, you know, stand by me. I knew him from that, so yeah, cool, they're in it together. But Last Crusade. And last crusade, but yeah, like that's what back then, not so much now. I think you would just watch a movie because that actor is in it that you like.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:28

100%. I watched like up until about fifth element, I'd say, I watched everything Bruce Willis was in because I fucking loved Bruce Willis as a kid. Yep. Like, so I tracked down so many Bruce Willis films, and my mum and dad would be like, uh, you probably shouldn't watch that. And then I found like the TV show of Moonlighting with like Sybil Shepherd or whatever. You went back, I love it. And that's the thing, like, whenever I get into an actor, I get into him. So Clinton Eastwalk was last year and I watched everything he's ever fucking done.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:02

Yeah, but you you read No Stone Unturned, which I love. I don't. I don't. Yeah. I want it all.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:08

And like, you know, have you ever seen Babes in Toyland, the Keanu Reeves film?

SPEAKER_02 1:36:13

Uh no, I haven't seen that. Yeah, I've remember it, but call yourself a fan.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:19

It's like it's the same deal. I will I will just have to like and I think this comes from um not having the internet. It's like, yeah, who's in it? This guy? I know this person from this film. And he was great in this film, so I'm gonna have to watch everything she has been in. And then, oh, they seem to make loads of films together. Who's the director? That director. Well, then I've got to watch that director's like where else that guy and uh it's just through that like family tree of like, you know, where you're just like, I've got to watch everything because God knows what's out there. And like I missed that. I missed that a little bit. Like now I go on letterboxed and I'm like, what have they been in? 100 films. You've seen 60 of them.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:02

All right, I'll add the near the 40 to my watch list and I'll get ready to Yeah, and I think that definitely uh me and my brother both, because he he he went to film school and uh probably may not call himself a filmmaker anymore, but he he is. Um he like we both were really into stuff, and so when the credits rolled, we wouldn't switch off the BHS. We would we were aware of names, we knew producers' names, directors' names, right, maybe not so much writers, but until later. Yeah. But like we just knew to and we kept we we were tracking those names, so they became important, not just the actor. I was like, we we knew who directors were and stuff like that, and then it kind of about age 12, it just all took off after that. Because I think not long after that, I probably saw Psycho for the first time, right? And then I was like, boom, you know, cinema, and now started going back in time and watching old stuff, and yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:05

Are you talking about Gus Van Sant's 1997 shot-for-shot remake with Vince Fulham?

SPEAKER_02 1:38:10

Saw that at the cinema. Um and that was um yeah, it's interesting that my brain linked those two, but that's why. Um, but yeah, it's uh that was an interesting one. I I didn't feel like it worked.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:26

As a study. As a study, I think it's an interesting study. It's a case study. Absolutely. If you do a shot for shot, does it still capture the same magic? No. No. But I'm pleased you've done it, and I'm pleased someone as high profile as Gus Van Sant did it, and I'm pleased you got actors who had the ability to do what is being asked of them. Yeah. If anyone ever says, Let's make a remake, just show them that and go, Why?

SPEAKER_02 1:38:54

Well, it's like a cover song. When you hear a band cover a great song and they do it exactly how it was done, you sort of go, Why? But if they do their own version of it, they change the structure, they change the maybe they make a jazz version of it, you go, Yeah. That's really interesting.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:08

It's still great. Um Foo Fighter's cover of Band on the Run, I think is better than the original.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:19

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:20

Uh, so that's a nice one. And then Dario Argento said that about Suspiria. He said, if you're making a shot for shot remake of my film called Susperia and you're gonna call it Suspiria, don't if you're not gonna do a shot for shot remake of my film and you're gonna do your own story and do whatever you like, don't call it Suspiria.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:40

Pretty clear messaging there. Yeah. You fucking it's done. Like Yeah. So no, I agree. Yeah, yeah, I think it's I like that idea that they say about um let's remake the shit films that no one liked. Let's find the films that tanked that nobody enjoyed, find a way of making them work again, and then remake those.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:07

Then let's one thing they're defaulting to a little bit is the let's make it meta, where it's like we're gonna remake anaconda. But it's the film is about them remaking anaconda, or uh I haven't seen He-Man, but I've I'm I'm sure it's quite meta in that it's like we're aware that this is a bit cheesy. Yeah, maybe.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:38

Yeah, that's right. He was skeletal, wasn't he? He's only the voice. Okay. Which means they probably could have got anyone.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:49

Yeah, I know. But I guess it's a good one. And then in that case, why get a name? I just don't understand some of these guys, like what they choose to spend money on.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:59

I mean, when you sign up, Jad Lao, I think you get pre-baked in 30 million 30 seconds to Mars fans.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:09

Yeah, but then make it part of the marketing.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:13

Yeah, sure. Makes sense. Makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:18

Uh but yeah, Mind Private I have definitely started off that journey, I would say. I'd I'll give it, I'll give it credit for doing that. And uh, but it was a very quick steep kind of learning curve after that. It's like bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. Lots of art house cinema, lots of going back in time to watch older stuff. You know, it was probably not that long after that. I saw Bridge on the River Quiet for the first time. Lovely. So then it was like, whoa, okay, cinema, cinema has always been great.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:49

Mmm. I I think that sort of I still love to be reminded of that when I watch a film that I haven't seen, and it's a classic, you know. Like the amount of people that say, like, no, no, no, that's a really good film, and I'm like, well, I've never seen it, and I've seen 4,000 films. So I must have like it must have not been good enough. And then I'll put it on and be like, oh fuck, I'm wrong. That was oh, I love that.

SPEAKER_02 1:42:12

I love that experience. You know, I had that experience recently with um fuck me. It was uh the John Wayne Weston with um Oh god. Yeah, don't ask me. I have to look it up now.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:31

Uh Man is shot Liberty Valance.

SPEAKER_02 1:42:34

Yes, that's the one. Man is shot Liberty Valence.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:36

Yeah, I mean that is a sick film.

SPEAKER_02 1:42:38

It's perfect, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:40

I mean I knew it would be good, but but I when watching it, I was like, oh my god. But how good, you know what I mean? Yeah, like I watched the original 310 to humour. Yeah. And I was like, how good's it gonna be? You know, and I was like, Well, it turns out fucking sick.

SPEAKER_02 1:42:56

That good, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:57

No, I know.

SPEAKER_02 1:42:58

Nothing better.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:59

Nothing better.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:01

You know.

SPEAKER_01 1:43:01

Um so talking about things that are there's nothing better.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:43:08

Well, let's just let's just do it. Yeah. Let's just get into it. You know where this is going. He loves crocodile dundee, everyone. What's this what film holds a special place in your heart? Crocodile Dundee 2. Uh no, it's um Yeah, boy.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:25

Yeah. It's Florence of Arabia. Um, to no to no great surprise, but like I wasn't young. I was I was an adult by then, and and um probably like early 20s when I first saw it. I had the DVD, someone gave it to me for Christmas years prior. And um and it was like, oh yeah, I'll get around to it one day. There you go. I've got the exact same one.

SPEAKER_01 1:43:50

Yeah, yeah, the 4K Steelbook.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:52

Yeah, of course. And that one is a 4K that is genuinely worth having, and I've I've compared them. It is great. But yeah, I mean that changed my life because uh it became it became a a motive for my life as well, like a theme, and that is you know, that that nothing is written. Uh name my YouTube channel after that, and it's just also just been a thing that I follow. It's like the belief that when told by an outside voice, this is destiny, this is gonna happen, you can't change it, and then saying, Fuck you, I'm gonna change it. It really spoke to me, and it's it's not been better demonstrated than that film. Um everything about it is just what cinema can be, and it's the it cannot be done in any other format than cinema. You can't make a video game of Lawrence of Arabia and capture what's captured in the cinema version of that story. Um so it stands alone, and it just really like taught me so much about the deliberateness of a frame and the that it is worth doing it for real if you can. When the when they storm Akaba and there's a thousand horsemen storming Akaba, there's a thousand horsemen storming Akaba.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:25

And that's it. You know, it's not there's no CG. This is where, like I CG is just a tool, and I and I have nothing against it, but this is where it could fall down because you know and you can see it. Like those are CGI horses. This, it's they're really there. They're in focus, it's deep focus, it's such a wide angle. There's just so much in this film that and taught me so much about visual language, cinematic language, like, and time and pacing, you know, the famous well scene. Um just watch it. If you want to learn anything about making films, watch that scene, then watch it again with the sound off, and just pay attention to the shots and the editing and the framing. You learn everything you need to know about how to make films from that. So it was profound. I watched it alone, and I was getting emotional by the midpoint because I was more just getting emotional at how good the filmmaking was, yeah. Also, on top of the emotion of what I was feeling from watching the film. Um, so yeah, it changed everything from there, and that sort of became the thing of like I I was already making films, but I was like, that is where I want to be. I want to get that good at this.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:39

It's amazing that when you watch a film and you get emotional purely for the love of the game. Like if that makes sense. Like I had with Magnolia. With Magnolia, I was the same. I was watching it just like ha. This is perfect. Yeah, yeah. This is a perfect film. Like and Lawrence of Arabia is another one where I saw it at the Prince Charles, like when they they released the 4K of it and everything. Not this DVD, but like you know, a couple of years ago. Yeah. And like I can sit through that film. I I I when anyone's like, oh, it's long, I'm just like, I know, right? Yeah. Like 'cause it doesn't feel long. I I'm I'm being told a story in such a perfect way that everything is the right like you're saying, the pacing, like everything is the right amount of time to focus and to get to where we're going, to then find this entire story about this person who then just gets taken out on a fucking breath superior, you know, like Lance is taken out on a bike after everything he's been through. And oh it's sucked.

SPEAKER_02 1:47:46

Well, shh like most a lot of Lean's films, especially around that era, it was a portrait of a descent into madness and obsession. And um you can't do that in 90 minutes. No, you need the three hour, three and a half hour epic to do it. And so by the time he's killing Turks and sort of almost like feeling orgasmic over the blood and everything, you you can't get to that at minute sixty-five, you know, you need it to be two and a half hours in. Yeah. Um, yeah, no, it's it's it's it's a miracle of a film. Um I mean, there's stuff structurally in it that you could even say, well, it doesn't do this and it doesn't do that, and yet it still works like I wouldn't change it, that's the thing. Like it's so yes, it doesn't have like a climactic ending. The the climax is well before that, I would say, and then it kind of slowly descends to to but not normality, but a kind of like you see him fade into the background. And I love the last shot. No, I agree, I agree, and because at the very beginning of the film, it's at his funeral, and people are saying stuff about him, but it's like, did you know him? Well, I didn't I didn't know him, but I well, I met him once, you know, and he's this legendary figure that no one really knows who he was. Everyone's at his funeral and no one knows him. That's that's telling. And then in the last shot, I think the last shot, this is why Lean is such a great director. He's on a he's in a military Jeep being escorted, you know, out of off back home. It's like you're going home now. We've we've we've had enough from you. He's in a Jeep. There's a shot. Obviously, the shot we're going with him in the Jeep, but then you see the motorbike pass. Brilliant, poet, poetic. It's like a sign of your future. But then there's a shot of him as well, and he's he's obscured behind the windshield, which is covered in dust. You can see him, but Not fully. This is where direct this is where directors need to pay attention to this is directing. Like there's meaning in that shot. That's the theme of the film, I think, you know? And it's captured like it as it should be in the last shot. So yeah. That film changed my life. Taught me so much about filmmaking. So good. It's such a good thing. Yeah, I I don't know, it's like a rush, it's like a a rush that I I fear I'll never get back to, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:50:28

What film's gonna replace that? I there's definitely never gonna be a film that replaces that feeling. I think there's only been a handful of films that even on repeat viewing, I feel that way. And like I say, Magnolia is one for me. I genuinely every time like I watch that film and I am just sort of taken away with like, oh god, that's good. And then what other films? There are other films. I think the three colours trilogy always do that for me. Like there's something about those films that are always just like delicious. Thank you. You know? And it it's I I worry that we don't get that as often. I almost got there with um one battle after another. I didn't get there with one battle after another.

SPEAKER_02 1:51:21

I was I can't wait for the next question. I know it's such a shame, but oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 1:51:31

I'm gonna I'm gonna gush over that film for as much as I can. Then yeah. You know, I almost got there with that film, but it didn't quite didn't quite go for me. Um but yeah, there are I do worry that there aren't gonna be as many films that get that feeling from audience. Maybe it's just not from me. My my love of film and my love of filmmakers all stem from about the 60s, like 60s and 70s. It's sort of the filmmakers I love all got their careers from there, and they all learn from other people from before them. So like my guides are almost on the way out now. It's harder for me to sort of fool for a director in the same way that I used to, because uh their references are the same as my references, which means I'm not uh I don't want to be a cunt. I'm not learning in the same way. You know, I'm not I'm not watching these these films being like, wait, what is the hidden fortress? Cursed tower, cursed hour, seven samurai. What do you mean the magnificent seventh and then doing this whole journey? Like now when anyone goes, you know, about and I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I know about everything about it, I've read the fucking books, I've seen all the films.

SPEAKER_00 1:52:51

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:52:52

Like it's only things like happiness by Todd Solange, or you know, uh just a really obscure filmmaker that I don't know that I have to I have to be introduced to them because it's like, oh, they're a B movie filmmaker and they only made six films and they're all amazing. And then you watch them and you're like, why aren't these more talked about? It's like because they're they're dog shit to other people. And it's like, oh, okay. Like that's the only way I ever get there anymore.

SPEAKER_02 1:53:19

And it's I do wonder if people uh this is probably a generation speaking here, but like whether people's younger people today have the same kind of um profound experience with a film that I'm talking about with Lawrence of Arabia. I I bet they don't.

SPEAKER_01 1:53:39

I bet they don't.

SPEAKER_02 1:53:40

I really, really would love that. But I I also feel like well what what have they got to react? Certainly not stuff from today, like But that's the thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:53:48

I wouldn't I wouldn't say that they don't in like a dismissive like, oh the kids today don't understand not like that at all. No, because they've got so much like the world at their fingertips, they didn't have to discover anything and find out that your two favourite people have been in something together, and then it turns out you know what I mean, they haven't had to do that journey because they can just Google it and find what's the best. Yeah. You can have the best straight away. It wasn't.

SPEAKER_02 1:54:16

Well I also think that they they land on the same films that we did. Like I I wasn't born when Lawrence of Areviau was made, so it's it was an old film for me, but I went I had to go back and go, no, that's where it really was at. And I think they end up doing the same thing. They kind of they when they're into film, they go through the back catalogue and start discovering things like Citizen Kane and all that sort of stuff, and and they end up finding the same stuff and go, yeah, that those are the best events, you know, those are the best sense. It's a shame because like I again to draw back to music, I'm still waiting for the next Metallica. Where are they? Why am I still into Metallica? Why why can't there be another one that's like better? And then there isn't.

SPEAKER_01 1:55:00

And let me tell you about a band called Megadeth.

SPEAKER_02 1:55:04

Look, I've tried, okay? And no, no, it's it's it's it's a it's not fair, it's a different it's a different genre. But um, but I take your point. Like, where is today where is today's Lawrence of Arabia? Where is today's Magnolia? Where is today's stuff that like what's the last film that deserves to be in that bracket that will be talked about in 50 or 100 years time? That's a hard one to answer.

SPEAKER_01 1:55:34

I think it's going to be something by Paul Thomas Anderson. Let's get into the next question. Because this is very relevant. So, what's your controversial film that you love? No, what's your controversial opinion on a famous film? Paul Thomas Anderson doesn't get enough love?

SPEAKER_02 1:56:01

So I got I'm still halfway through one battle for another after another, and I probably won't finish it. Um so my controversial opinion is is on that film. I I couldn't I didn't see what everyone else sees. I know I'm in the minority.

SPEAKER_01 1:56:18

How far are you? Um I think there's about 50 minutes left, 45 minutes left. Then fair enough. Yes, you won't. Yeah. That's fine. I think I'm sorry. I was just I was just gonna say, I wanted to love it. Fair enough. Fair enough. Like I spoke to someone recently and they sort of said, Oh, it's like it's I I don't care, you know, it's just whatever. And I was like, How far are you? And they're like, Oh, it's my dad. He was like, Who's this woman who's just shouting all the time and then she's sleeping with like Sean Penn? And I'm like, Oh, that's the first like 20 minutes. Yeah, like she's not in it for the rest of the film, the rest of the film is then about her child. And dad was like, I don't know. And I had to remind him of what he said to me about once upon a time in Hollywood, because I was like, That film's a piece of shit, I don't like that film. And he was like, You're wrong, go back and re-watch it. Okay, and I rewatched it and I was like, I was wrong, I really enjoy that film.

SPEAKER_02 1:57:21

Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:57:22

So when when dad was watching that and he was like, ah, and I was like, This is a once upon a time in Hollywood situation, Dad, like go back and re- and finish it because it makes it makes it worth it. But if you've only got like 50 minutes left, like you're not gonna enjoy it.

SPEAKER_02 1:57:43

Yeah, you know, I was consciously willing it to win me over. I was like, come on, this could like it's gotta be the next scene where things will turn and my opinion, my feelings will change, and it just it was not getting there. I felt like everything that had Sean Penn in it was great. He was really watchable. And the thing about PTA is like every film he makes has got great actors in it, not just good, but the best of the best. So they can they can smooth over cracks, they can do things, make things watchable that wouldn't otherwise be. And um and so there's stuff in it that makes you keep watching because they're so fucking good. But if you just were reading it on the page, it wouldn't be. And so that that's kind of where I feel like with that film, and but but as you say, like cinema is a funny thing. You can come back to a film five, ten years later and re-watch it and go, what the hell is I thinking? This is great. So I hope that happens. But yeah, at this point, I hope it does. I remember thinking about 20 minutes in, I was like, This is good, but I need this to get a bit better, I need this to get better. And I was I think it was around the the chase, the handheld wanna through all the buildings with Benito Del Toro and and uh um Leo, like it was at around that point I was like, why am I watching this? What why am I watching this scene is what I mean. What's this scene doing?

SPEAKER_01 1:59:16

It's a long scene, what's it doing? I think that is interesting because actually Leo is uh pointless throughout the entire film. Like that's how it feels, uh, but I'm only halfway through, so yeah. But he is. Like the daughter takes care of business and doesn't need him there. He is literally a ride home at the end, which I think is actually quite a nice sort of you know a metaphor for a dad, is that you wish to give your child everything to uh defend themselves against the world, yeah, and you're always there for them. And just like a good dad, he picks her up at the end of the night, as it were. Like so for all his fault, like all of his sort of you know, uh faults and all that kind of stuff throughout the entire story of those two. He's just a useless donor and all he can't do that. Yeah, as soon as he goes missing, he gets back into action. And ultimately everything he does is pointless. But everything he did for her is not pointless, and she can take care of herself. And that's like I think that to me is the beauty of that sort of that story, if that makes sense. Now I was in a similar position, I'd say, like the first couple any minutes, I was a bit like oh no. I don't know if I like this. Yeah. And then by the end, I was so invested and so happy with the end like with the with the whole film. I was just like, Yeah, that was excellent. Like, so I think it is just a matter of you know, the reading, as it were. Like, there are films which just rubbed me the wrong way, minute one, and they could have been the greatest film, but I'd be like, no, fuck off, I don't care.

SPEAKER_02 2:01:07

I know it's such a personal response, and it's sometimes it's about your mood on the day or or anything like that. That can also be jealousy of the filmmaker as well. That that worries me the most. Like I think yeah, yeah, I I I don't like to be told with PTA, you know, everyone just tells me. If you don't think he's a genius, then it's because you don't get it. And I think that rubs me up the wrong way. I'm like, no, I I get it. But it's the film's fucking responsibility to win me over. Yes. Not their not their pedigree, not who they were or who they are or any of that shit. Don't give me the word I fucking hate the word genius. That just that word gets overused so much.

SPEAKER_00 2:01:46

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 2:01:47

Um, because if it was, it would win me over. So I think what what I respond to with any film is I gotta I gotta invest in the hero. And if the hero is a person who doesn't take any form of action and it happens all around them, it's very difficult for me to invest, you know, because where's the investment? I I found myself I I always find myself investing in potentially the wrong person. Like I was more invested in Sean Penn's story. I was like, yeah, actually, I actually think I'd watch that whole film from his point of view because he's fucked up, he's got a goal, he's suffering, and he's fucking it up, and you know, there's just there's some interest there, there's something he's got something to hide now, especially that scene with the white supremacist cult. It's like, oh, his story is really interesting now, you know? And um, yeah, man. So make that film, you know, and so I think that was part some of my frustration with it.

SPEAKER_01 2:02:45

It was like, I think you picked the wrong perspective to tell this from. I think that is a fair uh take on the film because if you were to say, you know, uh for the Oscars, you know, should Leo be nominated, it's like not for leading because uh he wasn't the lead in that film. She was the lead in the film, and uh Sean Penn would be like supporting but in a leading villain role. Like I completely agree with you that Leo's you could cut uh 90% of Leo's character out and it doesn't affect the story one iota. But what I quite like is that that's the case. Like we're watching all of this unfold and then we've got this very useless man trying to figure it out. And I like that. And but again, when you're saying about you know calling a director a genius and you know, all of that kind of stuff, Paul Thomas Anderson like I either love his films or I just do not care for them. And Hard Eight, I don't think Hard Eight's a very good film. I don't think Inherent Vice is a particularly very good film. And I haven't seen Licorice Pizza yet, but I'm not intending to enjoy it. And that's when I know that it's like, oh no no no. Because I love Magnolia, because I love Boogie Knights, because I love The Master When I do like one of his films, they I they either are just uh flat, well done, perfect, or it's alright, fuck off. Whatever you're doing, it's not for me. Goff you go.

SPEAKER_02 2:04:34

Yeah, no, I get that, and that's he's a particular spice, isn't he? Like and um I think when it comes to like the meaning that you're drawing from the film, I sort of feel quite strongly that that's where the genius does lie. That if if if you the meaning should be inherent, sorry, the meaning should be apparent. You shouldn't have to have an academic discussion after a film to understand what it means. I feel like that meaning should be implied through the use of imagery that it's that anyone can watch it and sort of maybe not articulate it, but get it. Yes. And uh that oh, that's the point, that it's about this useless guy and all the stuff happening around him, and that's saying this. Um I always feel like yeah, you your meaning may well be obscure, but the real genius comes in making a film that actually its meaning is undeniable and but also doesn't need to be certainly not articulated by characters, but it's just no one could watch the film and not derive that meaning from the film. I'll give you an example, right? You watch The Hurt Locker.

SPEAKER_01 2:05:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:05:47

When you get to the scene near the end where he's in a supermarket and he can't fucking decide which cereal to buy, and it's there's no words. He doesn't go, I can't decide what c no, he's standing there in a wide shot where he's just he's dwarfed by these rows of cereal. This is a man who could make a decision, life or death decision, in the war without a second thought. He was a decision maker.

SPEAKER_00 2:06:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:06:16

Here he is at home, and he can't decide on which cereal to buy. And the meaning is apparent, it's inherent in the visual. You don't need it explained to you. You that when the credits roll, because when the credits roll, it's because he's just gone back to war. Because that's where he's valued. Yeah, that's where he knows. I can make decisions, I can I can affect change, I can do things, I've got value. And then it cuts the black, and you go, oh my god. The meaning's apparent, the genius is in that. It's Catherine Bigelow, so you know what I mean.

SPEAKER_01 2:06:51

Like probably the most underrated director in the world. She's just phenomenal. Like, she is fucking excellent. Like, I know, yeah. She's so good. Like, and it it it it honestly blows my mind that anyone ever has anything bad to say about her. Because I'm like, right, pick any of her films and tell me why they're shit. I bet you fucking can't. Like even her most recent one, where it was the the dropping the bomb, it was on Netflix, I can't remember what it was called.

SPEAKER_02 2:07:21

Oh, I did have some issues with that.

SPEAKER_01 2:07:23

But I I it was compelling and I enjoyed it. It was compelling and I enjoyed it. And like everyone's argument about like, oh, you didn't see the bomb go, it's like, yeah, that's that's it's that's the point. It's no, I know, that was the strength of it. You know, like and the and and like I don't know. I uh she's a very good filmmaker. And I think um there are certain filmmakers who uh are very good at just giving you that look at the end, you know, just throw throwing his fucking police badge into the Australian fucking tsunami that is you know Swayze getting wiped out at the end. You're just sort of like, yeah, Johnny Utah, man, he fucking gets it.

SPEAKER_00 2:08:04

Like yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:08:06

Just the look, just the look.

SPEAKER_02 2:08:09

Yeah. Yeah, so that that's I guess where I land on it. It's like the meaning might well be there, but it shouldn't require a forum afterwards of people, especially PTA fans, all telling me, no, you just don't get it. It's about this and it's about that. And uh, but you know, I I can't really speak anymore of it because I haven't seen the whole film, so maybe that will all be apparent and the genius is there.

SPEAKER_01 2:08:31

Yeah, you can't watch it all. You just haven't got you TikTok generation, you ain't got the time to keep your eyes open for two and a half.

SPEAKER_02 2:08:37

Yeah, I've been too busy doing that. So, what have you been watching recently? Um I've been watching a lot of disappointing horror.

SPEAKER_01 2:08:43

Oh, excellent.

SPEAKER_02 2:08:44

Yeah, yeah, I I haven't been watching any any shows or anything like that religiously, but I've been uh spent the last year or year and a half just watching a lot of horror films because I was writing one and yeah, so I um wanted to research the genre as much as possible, but it's such a big genre, there's just there's always another one that I haven't seen that's like oh I really should see that, you know. So I've I went through and watched a lot of the big ones from the last 20 year years or so. Uh and um there's some they're all they've all got value, they're all they've all got great stuff in them, and that's what makes them a frustration because the first half, brilliant, scary. The second half can't sustain its momentum. Initial concept is usually a solid a um Yeah, yeah, and and then and endings. You know, I'm an endings guy, I spend I spend a year on my endings, you know, or or more. Like I that's the thing I put all of my effort into when writing anything. Um, because it's for me it's a non-negotiable. You have to send the audience out of the cinema on a high emotion of some kind, where it can be it can be deep depression or it can be joy or it can be whatever, but it's got to be a big emotion, and you only get that when you get your ending right, and it's got to be built in uh from the first frame. So uh, but I see a lot of horror films that don't have that because they don't quite know where to take their concept. Yeah um and so they they take they chicken out, they they cut to black without you ri knowing what happened, and it's like fucking hell, man. You did it again, you know. So I've been watching a lot of those.

SPEAKER_01 2:10:29

Sounds uh frustrating. Um have you seen did you watch Oddity? Damien McCarthy's Oddity.

SPEAKER_02 2:10:39

I think that's on my list of ones to see. Let me just look it up. I've heard of that. Oddity.

SPEAKER_01 2:10:46

Yeah, he did Hoke recently. Uh Oddity came out Oh okay, yeah. I can't remember now. Last ten years.

SPEAKER_02 2:10:56

Yeah, I'll check it out. I haven't seen it. That's a good one.

SPEAKER_01 2:11:00

Um I cannot think of a fun, not fun, but like a good horror that's a new horror.

SPEAKER_02 2:11:10

I loved Smile 2. I thought that was really good.

SPEAKER_01 2:11:13

Smile 2 was so good.

SPEAKER_02 2:11:15

Yeah, really interesting. She is phenomenal in that, and uh and it and it had a satisfying ending. Like it actually all for me kind of wrapped up in the right way.

SPEAKER_01 2:11:26

It's like and it had enough obscurity, but it was yeah. The um I think one of the her apartment sort of like smile moments, let's say, uh, it was the first film that actually made me jump in a long time, to the point where I had to pause it and go and tell Kirsty, like, Smile 2 just made me jump. And she was like, Jesus Christ. And I was like, Right. Like I was so like, oh fair fly. Um but yeah, Smile 2 was really good. Yeah. Um what else have I god I've seen so many. Horrors. I just don't know anymore.

SPEAKER_02 2:12:03

I have a long list of things and it's like a lot of things.

SPEAKER_01 2:12:05

Are you a letterboxed guy? Are you letterboxed? Is that a subscription service? No. I've heard of it, but I don't know what it is. You'll have to explain. Oh, sorry. Uh Letterboxed is just it's a film review site, but you can log all the films that you watched. So it's a free account and you can just log them all. You leave reviews. There's no you can either pay to be a a patron or a like a member, but the only additions you get are knowledge that you're paying to keep the server running. That's about it.

SPEAKER_00 2:12:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:12:38

Like so that they're like you get the same level of service regardless. And um like I go on there to log all the films I've watched, but because I've seen so many, I have to make sure that I don't uh waste time watching them again when I know there's so many more films I need to watch. But I also keep all my watch lists on there so it's you know what what do I intend on watching, what what looks good, what have someone suggested, and I've got to be like, right, fucking put them all in. And then I'll track them down. But um yeah, it's uh it's good. You can follow me when you do get it. Okay, then you'll see all the stupid stuff I watch. I can judge you. Oh, you fucking should as well. There'll be like a tea of police academies, then all of a sudden it's like you watched something really good and gave that five stars. Like it's like yeah, yeah, yeah. Police academy 5. Is Police Academy 5 the one where they go to Miami? I think so. I haven't got that far because I'll be honest with you, I watched the first three with the fucking stonest face in the world and thought, I'm not, I can't, I can't sit here for an hour and a half not laughing at comedy. So they haven't aged well. I can imagine that. Um so yeah. Like and then we watch Loaded Weapon, the Emilia's Sam Jackson film. Chef's kiss. I love that film.

SPEAKER_00 2:14:08

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 2:14:08

Like and then you watch any of the fucking like naked guns and you're like, right, that's how you do a fucking parody film. Prick. I I went and saw the new one at the cinema and I laughed all the way through it. And that's all it needed to do. I'll give you one up. I saw it at the cinema, laughed all the way through, then I suggested it to my in-laws while they were over over Christmas. We watched it, I laughed again. Yep. So there you go. Yeah, yeah. It's not just a one-sophage. No, it was it was funny. It was good. You know, such that like and Pam Anderson, who who knew she was fucking hilarious.

SPEAKER_02 2:14:50

Yeah, I know.

unknown 2:14:52

Damn it.

SPEAKER_02 2:14:53

I know, I there isn't comedy as a genre has really died. It's yeah, for I mean, for no um no mystery to why, like, it's just when you've got comedians being cancelled and can't do perform and because they told a joke 20 years ago someone doesn't like anymore or whatever. It's just like well what what do we've we've forgotten what comedy's meant to do? Like comedy is a mirror. It's a we're allowed to laugh at ourselves. Oh no, but you can't punch down, you can only punch up. I don't believe in that. But um you know, and I think it's really hard with cinema.

SPEAKER_01 2:15:30

Yeah, I think with comedy, if you target um an audience that has no relevance, like if you've interacted with it and you have a funny anecdote or observation because of an observ like because of something you've interacted with, yeah. Then that's fine. If you were to come out and all of a sudden be like, this specific group, I've got no in no connection, but fuck them. Then I'd be like, eh, it's not. But that wouldn't be a funny joke. Exactly. If it's not a funny joke, that's the thing, like if it's a funny, it's like I'm sure I've laughed at a joke that I shouldn't have fucking laughed at. You know what I mean? Because it was probably funny. You set it up right, you told it good, you it was the right audience and the right moment, well done.

SPEAKER_02 2:16:14

Yeah. But also there's so much nuance in comedy, like you can have a guy telling a joke who the joke is that he's telling that joke because uh because he's adopting a character who is an ignoromet, for example. But if you took it on its surface level, you'd be like, well, he's just an ignorometh. He's not funny. It's like, no, no, but that is the joke. Don't you get it?

SPEAKER_01 2:16:40

And no, I don't think they do get it. I d I also don't think that people understand um comedians are professionals. Yeah. And when they tell a joke, it is a professionally written, crafted piece of work. Absolutely. If you repeat it in your office and you get set up by HR, it's because you're not a professional. Like it's as simple as that. Like, Yes. And context matters.

SPEAKER_02 2:17:07

You're not standing on stage with a microphone. Very different. Yeah, so we don't unfortunately we don't see a lot of comedies these days that are um not like they just don't really exist. You know, there's maybe one a year or two a year, and it's just like, where is comedy?

SPEAKER_01 2:17:25

And they they substitute uh every uh film to be a dramedy. Because it's like, well, we're gonna do this uh emotional scene, but we don't want you to feel emotional. So we're gonna make a shit joke that uh isn't funny, but it also shows that we're being light and silly at the same time. And it's that marvel of that desnification, the marvelling of it all, where it's just like you couldn't have had a thaw without being genuinely miserable and stoic, as is a Shakespearean way as it should be. Instead you've got to have and be like full of cheese whiz. And it's like, oh fuck off. Like just Marvel films in general, fuck off, but like fuck off. Like you don't have to make a joke every 30 seconds that isn't funny just because you think that's the handle.

SPEAKER_02 2:18:17

It's the equivalent of apologizing for the joke that you just told. Yeah. And it's like you'll never be funny if you're gonna take that approach. Um and and it's it's a disservice to the audience because the audience is invested in motion in someone like Thor, for example. And then you want us to feel something for him, something that's you know, like uh sympathy or something dark, some some negative emotion, right? And go on that journey, but then you destroy it by telling a joke. And it's like, no, don't and they do this all the time in Marvel films, they have an emotional scene, they get you, the audience, almost ready to cry, yeah, and then they they fuck it with a joke. And it's like so what you're doing is actually you're doing it, you're doing a disservice and you're you're dishonouring me as an audience member because I'm I was going with you, I was willing, and you pulled the rug out from under me, and now you're making me feel stupid for having an emotion because you're making the film the film itself is saying, ha ha ha, look at these idiots getting don't did you get emotional?

SPEAKER_00 2:19:25

Oh little baby.

SPEAKER_02 2:19:29

Yeah, yeah, and it's it's just people feel feel that from a movie, like you've got to don't do that.

SPEAKER_01 2:19:35

And if you do it too often, which Marvel has, yeah, I'm not gonna engage. I'm gonna watch it with a fucking screen in front of me where I'm gonna be like, that's some pretty pictures you're showing in front of me, and credits cool, right? That'll do. Yeah, I know, man. That's it. I'm gonna give it no emotional weight. And then when you try and tell me, like, isn't it sad that Tony died? It's like, no. Yeah. Because he's a character and he's shit. Don't you think he should win an Oscar? Robert Danny Jr. Robert Danny Jr. should have won an Oscar in the 90s when he was doing some really strong work. Should he won an Oscar for Tony Stark? No, he was playing himself. Fuck off.

SPEAKER_02 2:20:13

Yeah, no, no. Well we we we best not get onto the Oscars because that's another hour. But uh yeah, right. Yeah, I'm I'm with you on a lot of that stuff.

SPEAKER_01 2:20:25

Would you go? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:20:29

For historical context reasons, not for I would go so that I could enjoy the experience of stuff like in the toilet, seeing George Cloney taking a piss as well. You know, and it's just like weird stuff like that that must happen. It would be a bizarre experience experience.

SPEAKER_01 2:20:52

Um, my wife. Oh, I take my mum. I think my mum would get the most. Out of everyone I know, yeah. My mum would get the most out of it.

SPEAKER_02 2:21:02

No, I would want I would want my partner in crime who I could turn to and be like, this is a load of shit, isn't it? And she'd be like, I'm so bored.

SPEAKER_01 2:21:11

Thing is, I could also get that from my mum.

unknown 2:21:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:21:15

I'd be outside just like bunch of cunts, these people, and my mum would be like, I'm sure they're alright, and I'm like, fuck off, they're not here. You can say what you like. She'd be like, Yeah, they're a bunch of cats, and I was like, Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:21:25

Because you would you would also see stuff that obviously isn't broadcast, you know, like you would see somebody, I don't know, somebody like I don't want to name a name, but some big director or big actor sitting on their phone and testing whilst there's something important going on on stage that they really should be paying attention to, and just funny stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01 2:21:48

The one that I always like is there's a bit where in one of the Oscars or one of the awards ceremony, uh Christian Bale is like laughing and joking and have a really nice time, then someone nudges him and points to the camera, he sees it and then goes stone faced, and it's like, yeah, yeah. Oh really? I bet you're a fucking hoot, but you've maintained this like pretty actor like mentality.

SPEAKER_02 2:22:14

I do think that some of the best performances that you see from all those actors is the face they pull or don't pull when they're they don't win. Yes. I love that.

SPEAKER_01 2:22:24

Mickey Rourke not winning for the wrestler. Oh, that was throwing his hands in the air and going, Fuck's sake.

SPEAKER_03 2:22:31

You're just like, oh done, Mickey.

SPEAKER_01 2:22:33

I felt for him. Oh, I felt for him. He should have won it. He should have won it. I don't remember who did, but um it was 2008, wasn't it? So uh Yeah, it would have been 2009 Oscars. Uh it was the year Ledger won his posthumously. So that was best supporting though. So that was it.

SPEAKER_02 2:22:59

Uh was it an Adrian Brogan?

SPEAKER_01 2:23:00

Oh, was it Daniel Day Lewis for There Will Be Blood?

SPEAKER_02 2:23:05

I thought that was the year prior. Fuck. That's a tough one.

SPEAKER_01 2:23:12

Do we do it? Do we Google or do we use our brains? I don't care enough, to be honest. You know what? Boom. Correct answer, sir. Here's your Oscar.

unknown 2:23:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:23:27

Fair enough. Fair enough. Um, you wanna you wanna promote anything? You wanna shout out any of your works, any of your films?

SPEAKER_02 2:23:34

Uh I'm so I'm terrible at this kind of self-promotion stuff, but if people want to find me, I'm pretty easy to find. You can just Google my name, Tim Orb A-U-L-D, and there's a YouTube channel that I did, which I guess like the people that I would want to reach me is that audience. So people who who uh didn't get into film school or can't afford to go, and they want to just learn some of the things that actually are important about this craft, uh, despite what they get told by whoever else. Um that's the channel that I that's that was the kind of reason behind my YouTube channel, is just and it's there's not much there, but what is there already hopefully will help because I've I've chose to do like the first few things that I know. Like if you're gonna go into this enterprise, master these things and you'll be fine. I say that, I'm not fine, but like you you you're on the way, and um and um so like there's a video about the hero's journey, which I deliberately try to do my best to demystify because it's another one of those things that academics like to hide behind and say, Oh no, no, this is not for you over here, this is an elite thing that we academics understand, but it really isn't, it's not that hard. And um, and uh there's a video about uh about directing, the same thing. It's just like here's what you need to focus on. If you want to learn how to direct, this is what's important, just learn this, this these principles. And then there's another one, which is my uh biggest hobby horse, which is the crisis, crisis scene. Uh so mm, this is taken from McKee. Rob McKee talks about every character has to get to their crisis moment uh that reveals their true character. But what he's talking about is like that's that's your ending, like that's where you get that's you get your third act, right? And you've got a movie, you've got something that will make somebody feel emotion, which is how I've managed to get to where I've gotten to, which isn't far, but it is somewhere, in the sense that I'm nobody, but I wrote some words on paper, I sent that to some people, and it won some competitions, and it got me a producer, and it got me the chance to direct a feature now, all because they read a script that I wrote that made them feel emotion. Well, the reason they feel emotion is because of the craft that that I'm talking about that I put into it. So there's some stuff like that on my YouTube channel that I hope will actually help people.

SPEAKER_01 2:26:06

Nice. Well, I'll link all that in the description so everyone can go over there. Do check it out, some wonderful sort of uh visual essays as they as they that's what they're sort of Yeah, they're definitely visual essays, that's what they are. Yeah. So that's um like put one on when you're having dinner and just consume it, you know, just like obviously sit and listen, but it is that like it's a it's a wonderful thing that you can have it on the background and learn something, which I think is uh one of the best things about YouTube. Eat something soft, like lasagna, don't eat Doritos because you have to do it. No, no, no, no, no, yeah, yeah. Soft serve ice cream, fish potatoes, that kind of stuff.

unknown 2:26:42

You know.

SPEAKER_01 2:26:43

Um well, thank you very much for coming on. It's been lovely talking to you. Uh I I do feel like uh we could uh talk forever.

SPEAKER_00 2:26:51

So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:26:52

Yeah, well, I mean, thanks Ted for inviting me on, it's been really good. And and uh I agree we could definitely do another couple of hours, but we've both sort of got lives and need to get back to them. But um I love what you're doing, I think this is an important thing, it's an important format, great conversation to have. And um I'm gonna start looking through your back catalogue and listening to other people because uh there's always value to get from these conversations.

SPEAKER_01 2:27:21

100%, 100%. And I think being open, which you have is uh one of the greatest things. I think we do need to demystify the industry and let everyone know that uh it's not always the the easiest of gigs, but it is a very satisfying gig when it gets right, so yeah, I think um I think people need to get better at just believing in themselves a bit more, and I know that sounds a bit trite, but it's it's true in the sense of like every every video essay that I make ends with the same phrase, which is something to the effect of, you know, if you're feeling a bit inadequate, just look at what gets made.

SPEAKER_00 2:28:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:28:08

And there is you should see things that way. Like, look at the shit that gets made, and you're worried about your script, you think you might not be good enough? No. Just focus on getting better, learn how to see where you can improve, be humble in that sense, and be fucking relentless about getting better. Because there will come a point where you absolutely overtake the shit that's getting made. You will, and someone will recognize that. So, yeah, that that's the only thing I I really hope people start believing them in themselves a bit more and seeing that okay, I am good, but I just I've just got to get better and keep committing to that. And uh the rest hopefully will just take care of itself. But it's but it's also you've also got to put yourself out there, you put the work out there, otherwise no the Hollywood won't ring. No, you know? Um it's only because I put my shit into competitions and it won a few that then there was a tiny little ping on the radar in Hollywood and someone picked up a phone. But you've got to risk something, you've got to go out there a little bit. Which I know is hard.

SPEAKER_01 2:29:23

Sounds like a great place to leave it. Um Yeah, man, that's that's a good one. So thank you very much, and uh hopefully talk soon.

SPEAKER_02 2:29:30

Thanks, Ted. Really appreciate the conversation.